Buyer beware with online parts shopping

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topseaturvy
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Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by topseaturvy »

Call me an old fart but there's nothing more sure and comforting than holding a part in your hand at a physical store and paying for it, knowing that it is what it is.

Recently I was looking for a very specific set of nuts and washers. I posted a thread about the whole process I was doing that required these specific nuts and washers for the 454 crusader engine. In brief without going into the reason, the nuts are 3/8” brass “heavy nuts” with a nyloc insert. The washers are 3/8” copper washers. The actual OEM replacement parts are almost impossible to find but they do exist. Sierra # 18-8540 is the replacement kit of 4,,,, supposedly. One needs 4 kits for both engines.
I thought I had finally found a crusader marine supply company on Long Island NY that had plenty of them in stock. But they would not ship to Canada direct nor would they accept my credit card unless I went through their Paypal. So in addition to getting the wrong thing, I had to pay $18.00 for broker fees and $30.00 for Paypal. The reason I bring up those expenses it that it really wasn't worth while to return them since I wouldn't get that money back which was about half the bill, once it got to the west coast of Canada.

In hindsight it was my neglectful mistake to not insist that the person on the phone do a physical look at the kit for me when I payed over the phone. Heavy nut means it needs a 11/16” wrench as opposed to the regular 9/16” wrench. Again I won't go into the reasoning for a heavy nut, or copper not brass washers, because my point here is all about not getting what I was supposed to get. I received regular 3/8” brass nuts/w nyloc inserts and brass flat washers in the kit, not copper. I can get these nuts and washers off the shelf at a local fastener supply store for just a couple bucks. The company is not getting back to me about this problem and it's been over a month so I'm not expecting a reply now. I don't know if it's Sierra's fault or the supplier's fault. I know that Sierra has the right stuff because I needed the 9 1/2” mounting studs as well. Which are needed for the 8" riser version. When I had my wet exhaust parts cleaned out, the studs broke off and the company cleaning the exhaust parts ordered me a replacement stud kit. I received a kit that included 4 studs, 4 nuts and 4 washers from Sierra. But the studs were 7” instead. Meaning that they were for a later model. The 9 1/2” stud, nut, washer kits were no longer available, apparently . But, the nuts and washers that came in the short stud kit were correct. Heavy nut/ nyloc and copper washers. That makes me think that the supplier just put a kit together and they weren't even from Sierra. The sticker tag on each set was generated from an in-house printer. It did not have the Sierra logo on the kit in the small zip lock bag.
Since this fiasco happened, I did track down a company in California that have the right nuts. I had them do a physical check and even in the part # description it has 11/16 at the end of the part number. Mind you they are super expensive at just over 10 bucks each CAD, and I need 16 of them and since they are nyloc, it's recommended to replace them each time they are removed. Not the end of the world since the inside of the exhaust is only checked every 4 years or so. The copper washers are readily available at any auto supply store. They are used as oil pan drain plug washers.

I'd gladly mention the name of the company here but I don't know if that's permitted here.
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prowlersfish
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by prowlersfish »

Can you post a photo(S) of were these Heavy nuts go ? In 45+ years of hands on I can't remember running into this issue . Perhaps the reason you had issues getting them is the were superseded ?
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topseaturvy
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by topseaturvy »

prowlersfish wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:15 am Can you post a photo(S) of were these Heavy nuts go ? In 45+ years of hands on I can't remember running into this issue . Perhaps the reason you had issues getting them is the were superseded ?
It looks like I have to use a URL to display an image on here so I can't just add one from my computer. The online diagrams are pretty poor so I'll try to explain. After the exhaust manifold there is the 2 in. wide "donut" casting that returns the fresh water to the tank. Next to that donut is the 8" riser, which is the start of the raw water system. It is attached to the manifold with 9 3/8" S.S.studs sandwiching that donut. There are four of those 9 3/8in. studs per manifold. For whatever reason Crusader didn't isolate the casting around the studs inside that 8" riser, which was a dumb idea. Because as the S.S. stud goes through the riser holding it to the manifold it is open to raw rater. That raw water travels out the end of the stud between it and the casting hole. The only thing sealing that raw water in, is the copper washer. Copper is used rather than brass because it is softer and acts like a gasket. Then the heavy brass nyloc nut is torqued on. It's my understanding that the reason it's a heavy nut is because of the large size of it would distribute more pressure over a greater area of the copper washer. But raw water can still escape along the threads and that's why it has a nyloc insert. The OEM part number is CRU95301300. But if you google it there is only one reference to that nut as being a "heavy" nut and when you go to that site you discover that it doesn't have a nyloc. I'm going to get that California company to send me a picture of the nut beside a regular nut, before I order them just to be sure.

Now after having said all that, since I'm not returning the nuts that I have, I'm going to experiment with what I have. I have the copper washers already, so I'll add a brass washer after it to add to the strength of the overall full coverage diameter of the washer surface and then put on the regular size brass nyloc nut and see if it leaks around the outside of the washer. I mean this whole thing may well have been thought out well with the engineers at Crusader to overcome their stupidity in not isolating that stud from raw water inside the 8in. riser. But in the end the heavy nut may well have been overkill.
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prowlersfish
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by prowlersfish »

You should be able to down load from your computer . That's how I post mine
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by BeaconMarineBob »

Topseaturvy, You should have call us. We have all the Crusader parts and ship to Canada by USPS. We even take your credit card.

We have over 100 of the CRU 95301300 Nuts Hex ESNA 3/8 -16 Brass

And the flat copper washer 3/8 over 80 instock.

We also have the bolt kit but it will not work if you are using the Donut between the manifold and riser.

Next time give us a call and we will even send you a picture.

Bob
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topseaturvy
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by topseaturvy »

BeaconMarineBob wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:15 pm Topseaturvy, You should have call us. We have all the Crusader parts and ship to Canada by USPS. We even take your credit card.

We have over 100 of the CRU 95301300 Nuts Hex ESNA 3/8 -16 Brass

And the flat copper washer 3/8 over 80 instock.

We also have the bolt kit but it will not work if you are using the Donut between the manifold and riser.

Next time give us a call and we will even send you a picture.

Bob
Beacon Marine
Trojanboats .net
609 713 4602
Bob, your pictures illustrate my point perfectly. Those are not the correct nuts but the correct part number, so that's the issue right there. You can see the difference in the size of the nut and the washers in the picture with the studs and gaskets. Even though the image is blurry, you can see that the nuts are much smaller than the washers. A heavy nut is 11/16 across the flats. The washers are just barely under 7/8" so the difference is slightly less than 3/16 over all. The heavy nut when placed on top of the washer will almost covers the entire washer. Also in the picture of the nut alone, the flats of the nut are pretty much flush with the part of the nut that rises up and curves over the top where the nyloc is. On a heavy nut there is a substantial step there.
Thank you for proving my point. What you and many others are selling as CRU95301300 is not correct. The correct description for CRU95301300 is : NUT,HEX ESNA 3/8-16BRASS 11/16 The 11/16 at the end of the part number is the key, and verifies that it is a heavy half nut.
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

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Sure wish you could post some photos . As I never had any issues . If the replacements are smaller outside , I don't see a issue . The wash would spread the load if needed . I have not heard of any issues from any other owners or marine techs . So I guess I am missing something ?????
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by BeaconMarineBob »

Topseatturvy, I should have been clearer in explaining the pictures. Our you are missing something when you are looking at the pictures I posted.

The picture of the Nut alone is a Hex ESNA 4/8 -16 Brass Nut part number CRU -95301300 this is not a aftermarket nut but a Crusader Marine part from Crusader.

The picture of the washer is a copper flat washer 3/8 which is part number CRU 92302000 which is also a Crusader Marine part and not a aftermarket washer.

The picture of the bolt kit is a Barr Marine part Barr 20 97772P (Crusader Marine does not make this kit.)

This kit probably would not work for you since it sounds like you are using the water jack donut.

We have been selling the Barr kit for years and have never had anyone say the Nuts or washers were not correct or that they had a problem with leakage around the bolts. We have also been selling the Crusader Nut and Crusader washer and again never have issue.
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by BeaconMarineBob »

Here is the Crusader drawing
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topseaturvy
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by topseaturvy »

prowlersfish wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:04 am Sure wish you could post some photos . As I never had any issues . If the replacements are smaller outside , I don't see a issue . The wash would spread the load if needed . I have not heard of any issues from any other owners or marine techs . So I guess I am missing something ?????
I'm inclined to agree, I used now used the copper washers that I bought, and since I got brass washers in the sierra kit I put them on next. Thinking perhaps the added thickness might help distribute the surface pressure from the small nut, distributing even pressure on the copper washer perhaps. Then I put on the small brass nut that I got in the kit. I just fired up the engine and ran it for about 30 minutes and no leaks.
It would be great to stumble across someone who worked at the Crusader plant during that time so I could get an explanation as to why the heavy nuts were used in the first place? It may well have been "over" precaution and over the years as the nuts became scarce and the exhaust systems were being removed to be cleaned regularly, gradually everyone just started using regular size nuts. Maybe my engine was the only one left on the planet with the heavy nuts still in place. :)
topseaturvy
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by topseaturvy »

prowlersfish wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:15 am Can you post a photo(S) of were these Heavy nuts go ? In 45+ years of hands on I can't remember running into this issue . Perhaps the reason you had issues getting them is the were superseded ?
prowlersfish wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:04 am Sure wish you could post some photos . As I never had any issues . If the replacements are smaller outside , I don't see a issue . The wash would spread the load if needed . I have not heard of any issues from any other owners or marine techs . So I guess I am missing something ?????
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by BeaconMarineBob »

Here is the answer in pictures.

If you buy a Crusader Nut and Washer you will get the big nut which takes a 11/16 wrench.


If you buy a aftermarket installation ket from which comes with studs and washers you get a smaller nut which takes a 9/16 wrench. We sell the Barr kit and have never had a problem reported. We also have the Crusader nut and washer.

In the future if you need a Crusader or Trojan part give us a call. We ship to Canada by USPS and take CC cards.
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topseaturvy
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Re: Buyer beware with online parts shopping

Post by topseaturvy »

BeaconMarineBob wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:41 pm Here is the answer in pictures.

If you buy a Crusader Nut and Washer you will get the big nut which takes a 11/16 wrench.


If you buy a aftermarket installation ket from which comes with studs and washers you get a smaller nut which takes a 9/16 wrench. We sell the Barr kit and have never had a problem reported. We also have the Crusader nut and washer.

In the future if you need a Crusader or Trojan part give us a call. We ship to Canada by USPS and take CC cards.
I like seeing that 11/16" wrench on that nut. I'll be in touch the next time I need those nuts.
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