12 meter Trojann 4 sale

[jaws]

Selling my 12 meter trojan. Twin 671 detriots 450 hp J&T. 500 original hours. 1 state room galley down. Needs new enclosure and some cosmetic work. Just had new injectors put in and tune up. Asking 65,000.

[guglielmo6160]

do you have some pictures

[prowlersfish]

where is the boat at ? Do you have more info and photos ?is it a flybrige or express (or aft cabin ?) thanks !

[ChriswUFgator]

That's pretty steep if it "needs work" like you say. A good set of canvas enclosures on an express-style boat with a 14'+ beam can run $10k-$15k+, at least if you use strataglass and good materials. And the same goes for paint, upholstery, interior fabrics, etc. It always cracks me up when people say it "just needs cosmetics", because that's some of the most expensive stuff...

Most people can do some basic wrenching and other miscellaneous things, but when it comes down to the cosmetic stuff, at least speaking for myself, I've got no clue how to sew curtains, or build a mattress, or redo gelcoat, or do upholstery work, and on and on and on. Almost anything "cosmetic", except for maybe waxing/polishing and varnishing, absolutely will require a professional for it to turn out right.

As an example, you can rebuild an older diesel a lot cheaper than you can get a nice paint job done these days, it's very expensive. And most people shopping in this price range probably aren't looking to play the shade-tree mechanic game and try and do a tip & roll job and home-sewn upholstery on this kind of boat, so for a prospective buyer the cost of cosmetics is really going to add up quickly, and then they'd wind up over the $90k or so that they could have spent for the same boat that needed no work. People will add this up and walk.

I think you will find that you're going to have two options if you want to move the boat, A: If you really want to see top-dollar, then replace the canvas and take care of the cosmetics before you market it, or B: drop the price low enough that the new owner has room to account for the headaches and cosmetics without having put more into it than it's worth right off the bat. That's my $0.02 anyway.

There are quite a few 39's for sale on yachtworld and boattrader ranging from the $50k's to $100k, and none of them were "projects", at least that I could see...

[wowzer52]

I just had all new full enclosures made for the flybridge and back deck with 60 mil. glass, windshield cover, hatch covers, hatch screens, window screens, sliding door screens, seperate flybridge mooring cover, railing covers, and boot covers for the enclosures, all stainless tubing and fittings, and any custom modifications I wanted with full warranty on all fabric and workmanship, a top notch job all for $5000. The cheapest bid I got was $3000. and the highest was $8000. Like anything else, It's not too bad on the wallet when it's done a peace at a time.

[JuiceClark]

[quote="ChriswUFgator"]...quote]

Go Gators! (BS in finance '89)

-------------

My partner in the boat biz has rebuilt dozens of 671s. (among many others) While we're waiting to start the first hull, if you want him to rebuild your Detroits let me know. He just rebuilt a 671 for a friend of mine's 1955 Greyhound bus. That engine had over 800,000 miles on it and the parts to rebuild it were only like $1,200. That's value my friends.

Tony

[prowlersfish]

ChriswUFgator I have to disagree I found only 1 on yacht world below 89k it was 59k and had been sitting for 2 years and look to be a carver hull . most 12 meters were over 100k rember we are talking about a 12 meter with diesels not gas and not a 11 meter listed as 39 foot ( I found a few )

I just spent 4k on my enclosure but thats a fly bridge

and who know what this is as there is no response to questions

[jaws]

[quote="jaws"]Selling my 12 meter trojan. Twin 671 detriots 450 hp J&T. 500 original hours. 1 state room galley down. Needs new enclosure and some cosmetic work. Just had new injectors put in and tune up. Asking 65,000. Ok. I see. Its a Flybridge. I do have an enclosure but it is pretty beat up. I put in over 3,000 into the motors. Each injector is about 80-100 dollars. The interior is nice. All new rugs, New chairs. New computer board in in the generator. Left side of the hull has about a 2 foot by 3 feet area where it rubbed up against a dock before i bought it. Needs some gelcoat work in that area. I will try too post some pics.Hope this helps.

[jaws]

Selling my 12 meter trojan. Twin 671 detriots 450 hp J&T. 500 original hours. 1 state room galley down. Needs new enclosure and some cosmetic work. Just had new injectors put in and tune up. Asking 65,000. Ok. I see. Its a Flybridge. I do have an enclosure but it is pretty beat up. I put in over 3,000 into the motors. Each injector is about 80-100 dollars. The interior is nice. All new rugs, New chairs. New computer board in in the generator. Left side of the hull has about a 2 foot by 3 feet area where it rubbed up against a dock before i bought it. Needs some gelcoat work in that area. I will try too post some pics.Hope this helps.

[ChriswUFgator]

ChriswUFgator I have to disagree I found only 1 on yacht world below 89k it was 59k and had been sitting for 2 years and look to be a carver hull . most 12 meters were over 100k rember we are talking about a 12 meter with diesels not gas and not a 11 meter listed as 39 foot ( I found a few )

I just spent 4k on my enclosure but thats a fly bridge

and who know what this is as there is no response to questions

They're out there...

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1989- ... e-94139055

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1990- ... 0-79212225

And as to the examples you mentioned, Yachtworld tends to be priced higher, because people add the 10% broker's commission to whatever they're *really* asking. And even then, 'asking prices' aren't 'selling prices', brokered boats are normally at least 25% negotiable, especially in the current economy.

In any event, you can get a really nice 12M for only a little more than he's asking for one that needs glasswork, canvas, etc. etc. My point was, 9 times out of 10, when you have the option to buy something at a slight discount and try to fix it up, it's going to wind up more expensive than just buying one that needs nothing.

I mean come on, if that weren't true, then there wouldn't be any "fixer uppers" around, because people would all just do the needed work before selling it. The reason they don't is because they know the work will cost more than the reduction in price they're taking because it "needs work". Human nature being what it is, people flock to the lowest-priced listing and then rationalize how they're saving all sorts of money. Then in the end, it will always wind up biting you in the butt and being more expensive. The only real exception to this is insurance auctions, where it's some giant company and they just want to get rid of it, and will let a 40'+ Hatteras go for $10k or whatever, I agree you can make money on those. But this is just a normal "fixer-upper", and the deal ain't that great.

I have tried playing the "fixer-upper" game a few times with different cars and boats, and I've never managed to actually come out ahead. No matter how good you think you're doing initially, it ALWAYS winds up being more expensive. You know there's a saying around the dock for this: "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap boat". Lol.

[prowlersfish]

ChriswUFgator , I still can't find that 50k boat. most the boats I have bought have been fixer uppers and I have made money on them( won't happen on the one I have now) . you do not kown how nice they are untill you look at them . putting in 10-15k in a 12 meter to make it look better is no big deal if the engines are in good shape . 500 hours is a real plus . one at 2000 hours may be time for a overhaul (real good chance ) . with out looking it is hard to tell whats a deal ad what is not . as far as insurance boats being deals . try to insure a totaled boat .

[ChriswUFgator]

ChriswUFgator , I still can't find that 50k boat.

First off I never said "$50k boat", if you'll re-read my post you will see that I said the range for them was "$50k's to...". But even though I never said that, I'll still oblige you anyway, so here ya go...this one's asking $59k, which means the sale price will be well under your $50k mark:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/Tr ... ted-States

So there's your $50k 12 meter with twin diesels. And I don't see anything in the listing about any fiberglass damage, etc., like the one that this guy is talking about on here.

most the boats I have bought have been fixer uppers and I have made money on them( won't happen on the one I have now) . you do not kown how nice they are untill you look at them . putting in 10-15k in a 12 meter to make it look better is no big deal if the engines are in good shape . 500 hours is a real plus . one at 2000 hours may be time for a overhaul (real good chance ) . with out looking it is hard to tell whats a deal ad what is not . as far as insurance boats being deals . try to insure a totaled boat .

Insuring any boat more than 20 years old is really getting to be a pain in the butt lately, but I have never bought or tried to insure a totaled boat and I wouldn't really know much about that. I just know a couple folks who buy them, do the work, and resell them and they seem to be doing o.k. at it.

And as to the rest of my comments, I really think you may be missing my point. ANY boat listed for sale of this age range will have SOMETHING wrong with it that's going to cost $$$ to fix. That's life. But in this case, this is above and beyond what you'd normally expect, needing new enclosures and glasswork right off the bat, and the price doesn't really reflect that. Who in their right mind is going to pay $65k for a boat that needs $15k+ worth of repairs over and above the general maintenance issues you'll have on any used boat for sale, when you can get one without those issues for the same price or less?

I'm not saying nobody will ever buy it, but the guy needs to adjust his price to compensate a prospective buyer for dealing with the repair headaches, or most folks won't seriously consider this one.

[prowlersfish]

One thing one boat is a flybrige and one is a express the flybriges go for more your comparing apples and oranges " Foreclosure forces sale " "not used in 2 years " these could be red flags . I am not saying the boats a great deal but it could be worth looking at . old canvas is not a big deal to me , as if you keep any boat you may end up replacing it . i spent well over 10k this year on canvas and elctronics alone .

boats that look turn key often are not . and boats that look bad maybe a diamond in the rough .

I have no proplem paying 65k for a boat and putting 15 k in it , when others go for more . ( many well over 100k ) and you end up with a boat with new canvas

Just my 2 cents worth


of coures we haven't seen what is need for "glass work " that could be no big deal or near total 1

[reelfishin]

I find it hard to believe the generator is sitting between the engines like it is on that 12 meter. It has the same width as our 11 mete. Our 11 meter the generator is cross way in the engine compartment and we can sit between the engines to service the oil etc. I wonder where the room went in the engine area on that boat.

[ChriswUFgator]

One thing one boat is a flybrige and one is a express the flybriges go for more your comparing apples and oranges

Ok, so eliminate the flybridge, there are still plenty of 12M express's out there in this price range, with no damage that needs to be fixed.

" Foreclosure forces sale " "not used in 2 years " these could be red flags .

Of course it's a red flag, but you were saying there was no $50k 12M out there, and so I posted it to address your comment. There are other comps that have no damage, no 'stories', and are a better deal than the damaged one this guy is trying to sell. But even then, if you want to compare apples to apples, then the foreclosure one is still a much better deal than the one with physical damage.

I'd rather deal with washing out the fuel tanks and spending a week working a scrub brush and buffer than having to shell out for all new canvas, glasswork, etc. right off the bat. And in any event, if you're committed to spending the $80k you're going to have invested in this damaged one, then there are lots of 100% perfect ones with that need nothing. So, again, why pay $65k for a boat you KNOW you're going to dump another $15k+ into immediately, when for the same friggin' $80k you can go right out and buy a perfect one that doesn't have these kind of issues? I'm just not understanding the logic here, how are you possibly being compensated at that price for dealing with the hassles of fixing it up?

I am not saying the boats a great deal but it could be worth looking at .

If he's negotiable, maybe. My only point is, there are a lot out there for the same money that you're going to have in this one, that don't have these issues. And even if you're going to buy a 'project', then there are still ones floating around that need less work at a lower price. So no matter how you cut it, it ain't a great deal.

boats that look turn key often are not .

Amen to that. That's pretty much every boat. They will all need something you don't know about, unless you buy one brand new, and even then they still have issues, but the warranty pays for it. That's why I'm saying, I don't see why you'd want to add things you DO know about to the list that's already lurking under there that you DON'T know about, when right off the bat the price hasn't been discounted enough to account for even the stuff you DO know about.

and boats that look bad maybe a diamond in the rough .

Well, like I said, I've never managed to play the "fixer-upper" game and actually come out ahead. Both times I tried it, I wound up with waaaaaaay more invested than I would have paid to buy the exact same boat that needed next to nothing. Maybe you've had better luck than me, but I think your experience is probably not the way it usually goes.

I have no proplem paying 65k for a boat and putting 15 k in it , when others go for more . ( many well over 100k ) and you end up with a boat with new canvas

Well this is where you lose me. For that same $80k (or less) you can get the exact same boat that you can just hop in, turn the key, and zoom off the minute they unload it from the truck, while this one's going to take up your time, energy, and effort before it's going to be useable. No matter how you cut it, that should result in a discount! You shouldn't just wind up financially right back where you would have been anyway. If that's the case then you should just buy one that doesn't need work!

of coures we haven't seen what is need for "glass work " that could be no big deal or near total 1

Yeah, I agree. Pictures would be nice.