Trojan International 10.8 Meter EXPRESS

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todd brinkerhoff
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Trojan International 10.8 Meter EXPRESS

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

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I have been researching this vessel for some time and have had many conversations with John Leed from Marine Tech. We had a previous post in regards to the lack of information on this little known vessel. I will try to provide everyone with what I have learned over the last few months of research. The following was the initial post about this vessel and the questions I had. Obviously from the replies, noone really had any accurate details.

http://www.trojanboats.net/wforum/viewt ... al+express

I will try to clear up some questions on this boat, as well as post various photos, articles, as well as various details and facts about this VERY rare boat, that was produced for only 1 year prior to Trojan Yachts demise.
Last edited by todd brinkerhoff on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

The Trojan 10.8 Meter International Express is NOT the express version of the 10.8 Meter Convertible. It is a complete departure, from the hull up, to the other Internationals made by Trojan. This was a completely new boat and design being created by Trojan Yachts, which at that point was a division of Bertram-Trojan, Inc. Although much has been written that there was No influence from Bertram in regards to Trojan boats, with the 10.8 Meter Express, that was not entirely true.

Trojan was facing hard times in the late eighties, and were looking to update their international line to help pull them through. Unfortunately, the new boat could not stop the inevitable, and in 1992, Trojan sold all of their assets to Carver. Although there has been some heated opinions about Carver destroying the Delta Conic Hulls, Carver was following the same direction that the Bankrupt Trojan company would have persued if it didn't go out of business. As a matter of fact, John Leed has a concept drawings of the new 10.8 Meter Convertible that would share the same platform as the 10.8 Meter Express.
Last edited by todd brinkerhoff on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

Trojan received major credit for its popularization of the Euro-Styling in its International Line. With this new line, they intended to go Full Euro-Design. With that in mind, they decided that the best man for the job would be well-known Italian Naval Architect, Fulvio de Simoni. As noted by "Power and MotorYacht" in June of 1990, the 10.8 Meter Express "Exudes a Mediterranean approach to yachting. Her deck plan is laid out for world-class convivalizing, while her accommodations are arranged for earnest living."

This boat design is now 20 years old, and as discussed with John Leeds, you could put this boat next to any new boat coming off the showroom, and not tell a difference in age of design.

Although Fulvio de Simoni was later recruited to design Carver's "Trojan" 440 Express, Trojan knew that Italian designed boats were not known for their sea manners in rough water. After producing what many believe as one of the finest hulls ever designed with the Schoell Delta-Conic hull, Trojan knew that they needed to not deviate from good rough-water capabilities and inherent stability characteristics. So they decided to recruit someone operating in the new formed Division.
Last edited by todd brinkerhoff on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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BobCT
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Post by BobCT »

good stuff...

How many did they make? So, is this essentially the same as the Carver Express series after all?


Bob
1988 10m mid cabin
todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

10.8 Meter International Express Hull

While Trojan was designing an entirely new boat design, they knew that they had big shoes to fill with the amazing Delta-Conic design. Although they were using Fulvio de Simoni for the design and layout, they wanted to take another path for the underwater design. And although Trojan had received a good reputation with the Delta Conic, they knew that one company really had the best, and most notorious reputation for hull designs, and that company was Bertram. Trojan executives decided to utilize David Napier, a well-known Bertram designer, who designed Bertram's 28, 30, 33, 35, 37, 38 III Convertible, 54, and 60 foot yachts. Trojan approached Napier with their requirements, which included continuing with the Delta-Conics good rough-water capabilities and inherent stability, but they also wanted Napier to improve speed and efficiency. Napier had just designed the Bertram 37 Convertible. Bertram during that time was also looking to change some inherent problems with their deep-v design's instability while at rest with beam sees and requirements for large horspower to move the deep v-design. The 37B utilized a shallower deadrise (18 degrees) and larger chines running the length of the hull.

The hull of the 10.8 Meter has many similiarities to some Bertrams (especially the Bertram 37 convertible from my research) with a very sharp entry, a 18 degree deadrise, and shallow keel. You will also see a chine that extends from the bow to the stern (although nowhere near as large as the delta-conic). The chine also arches up toward the bow, a significant distance from the water line, with a cut-away forefoot.

NOTE: The above information has been updated by "Boatbuilder" Charlie, who was senior managment at Trojan during the time of this boat's build. He corrected the above and stated that Lee Dana, the VP of Engineering at Bertram, and Dave Napier's boss, was the sole designer of the 10.8 Meter Express's hull. Charlie stated that there was one company that had the reputation for the best hulls anywhere, and that was Bertram, and that is why Trojan recruited Lee Dana to design this Trojan International's new hull.

Personal Experience

I've owned and operated the boat for two summers now. Having previously been on 10 Meters, and having an 11 Meter moored two slips down, I can try to give you the differences between the boats.

First, the 10.8 Meter Express should have more horsepower than is currently provided. The 10.8 Meter Express came standard with the Crusader 454 (350 HP) and a 2.5 reduction through the V-drive. The other engines available was a 502 (355 HP) and a 300 hp 3116 Caterpillar Diesel ($40,000 upgrade) With its deep-V, it does take power to get it out of the water. Additionally, a subject I will discuss later, it is a V-drive design with the motors further aft than the 10 and 11 boats. I installed 30X12 DF, which has made a world of difference getting the bow into the water.

As far as stability, the dockside stability of this boat is unmatched by every other boat at the marina except the 11 Meter. I would give the 11 Meter the edge, as we did experience 40 to 50 MPH winds from IRENE and the 11 Meter did not even move, while the 10.8 Meter rocked slightly. The other boats in the marina were rocking and bucking wildly.

Open water stability is a different story. I've been out with 3 to 4 foot beam seas and the 10.8 Meter Express will rock significantly more than a 10 Meter. Although not completely uncomfortable, you will lose everything sitting on your beverage table.

As far as underway, I had an opportunity to make a run from Oswego to Rochester (about 60 miles) in 20-25 knot headwinds, producing 3 to 4 foot, short frequency waves, with an occasional 5 footer. I was cruising between 19 and 21 mph at 3400 rpms. My wife had forgotten to secure some items on a tray sitting on the sink area up top. After about 5 minutes of run time, I realized that the items were not secured. They had not fallen down and slid only slightly around on the tray. The boat never slammed and the ride was completely dry. Matter of fact, I walked away from the helm for about 15 seconds and the boat never adjusted course. The boat would probably run smoother with a higher torque set-up, as I did lose some significant RPMs when running through a larger, short frequency 4 footer.

The boat does not appear faster or more efficient than the delta-conic hull. Speed at full 4400 RPM (again with the 454 set-up and a 1:2.5 reduction) is about 28 to 29 MPH. Fuel usage is about .75 to .85 mpg, although this is without a fuel flow meter. I have not had the boat weighed, however, reported weight was 20,000lbs with partial fluids. I would say with my hard-top, the number is probably higher.

The boat's strength is its manners while running rougher water. I have run an inlet where smaller boats are having severe difficulty and this boat has been very steady. However, Trojan's goal of a faster and more efficient hull, in my opinion, was not achieved.

In my opinion, a set of lightweight Yanmar diesels (ie the 370 hp 8LVs) would make a world of difference, and would make this great boat truly awesome :lol:
Last edited by todd brinkerhoff on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:59 am, edited 8 times in total.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

BobCT wrote:good stuff...

How many did they make? So, is this essentially the same as the Carver Express series after all?


Bob
Trojan produced less than 20 of these boats prior to selling its assets. John Leed even admitted that he could not believe they would spend as much money as they did on retooling without guaranteeing a larger quantity.

Carver took this design and recreated the Carver-Trojan 370, 390, and 400 respectively. They did make slight designs to the hull, as I am not sure they were allowed to utilize the exact Lee Dana design. I checked out a 1994 Carver-Trojan 370 and although very similiar, lacked the skeg/keel section, and had a reported 17 degree deadrise. They also changed some other gear, including the exhaust set-up, which I will discuss shortly.
Last edited by todd brinkerhoff on Fri May 03, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

Image
http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

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Running Gear

The 10.8 Meter Express came standard with a Crusader 454, which initially was 330 hp, but in 1991 came with a HE electronic ignition and some other enhanced features, and increased its horsepower to 350. The other options was the GM based 502, which was 355 hp. This was a $7,700 option. It also had the option of the 3116 TA Caterpillar 300 hp diesel. This was a $40,000 option (There was recently a 10.8 Meter express for sale in Florida with this engine). Initially, Trojan was planning on having the TAMD 61A Volvo diesel, which produced 296 hp, as an option, but that never came to fruition.

This boat also utilized a V-drive transmission. The V-drive configuration placed the engines aft. The concept was to put fixed weight at the stern, while allowing variable weights like fuel and water further forward, nearer to the hull's center of flotation, where changes in liquid levels have less effect on fore and aft trim. Additionally, situating the engines way aft allowed the convenient service access via a large powered hatch, which completely lifts the back deck of the boat towards the stern. It also concentrated the power train noises where they can be isolated better from the accomodations. Most people either like or hate a V-drive system.

The v-drives are made by Walter, and carried the reduction gear. Transmissions were Velvet with a 1:1 reduction. The gas engines used a 1:2.5 reduction in the V-drive, and a 1:1.5 reduction for the diesel option. This allowed this power train to turn a larger prop, with a 22X22 3-blade coming standard on the gas model.

Rudders and Struts were Manganese Bronze, Propellars were Nibral Bronze, and Shaft were 1 3/8th for gas and diesel.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

Exhaust

Another departure was Trojan's approach at developing a new exhaust system. If you look at the exhaust system on the 10.8 M Express, the exhaust fumes expell on the aft side section of the boat, about a foot above the water line. There are no (or minimal) water being expelled from this port. The hot water is actually separated and discharged through a thru-hull below the boat by the V-drives.

Once again, we return to a Bertram design. In the late 70's, Bertram developed an exhaust system to reduce the station wagon effect and called it the Veloci-jet exhaust system.

The idea was to reduce exhaust noise and reduce exhaust gasses from coming back into the cockpit, and was used on Bertram's 28, 31, 33 and 35 footers. The exhaust gasses and cooling water are separated in a extensively modified muffler. The exhaust gasses are then pushed through a "accelerator" chamber and are ejected through the sides of the boat at a high velocity with enouph force to go beyond the local boundary-layer air and are therefore not pulled into the low pressure area of the transom. Exhaust noise is also greatly reduced. It also reduces spray that is caused by water in the transom pipes being expelled during high power backdowns.

Interesting enouph, Bertram stopped using this design in their diesel set-ups because of the exhaust fumes producing soot on the side of the boats.
Last edited by todd brinkerhoff on Fri May 03, 2013 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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RWS
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Post by RWS »

Todd,

You have produced a great deal of very valuable information here that needs to be preserved.

Would it be fitting to add it to the Trojan International website that I put together?

I really do not have the background to make this site really look good, but I have numerous additional magazine articles and additional sales advertisements that could be added

I'd love to find someone with the interest and ability who can arrange all this info lay it out on the google site.

Want to work on it together?

http://sites.google.com/site/trojaninternational/Home

RWS
1983 10 Meter SOLD after 21 years of adventures
Yanmar diesels
Solid Glass Hull
Woodless Stringers
Full Hull Liner
Survived Andrew Cat 5,Eye of Charley Cat 4, & Irma Cat 2
Trojan International Website: http://trojanboat.com/

WEBSITE & SITELOCK TOTALLY SELF FUNDED
todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

RWS wrote:Todd,

You have produced a great deal of very valuable information here that needs to be preserved.

Would it be fitting to add it to the Trojan International website that I put together?

I really do not have the background to make this site really look good, but I have numerous additional magazine articles and additional sales advertisements that could be added

I'd love to find someone with the interest and ability who can arrange all this info lay it out on the google site.

Want to work on it together?

http://sites.google.com/site/trojaninternational/Home


RWS
I was thinking about putting this into an article format with the limited documents that I received from John Leed and I found through my research.

I would love to help you out. Although I must admit, I am probably worse than you in making the site. However, I have a brother-in-law that is a web designer who may be able to help make it look nice. Who is your host?[/quote]
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

Hull Configuration

I'll list two boats that were produced in 1991; the 10.8 Meter Express (Model 360) and the 11 Meter Express (Model 390). The two other Express or Mid-Cabin models produced were the 10 Meter Mid-Cabin (Model 340) and the 12 Meter (Model 400). I have the specs on all of these boats, but I would like to make the comparison to its closest model, the 11 Meter. The 11 Meter produced in 1991 had the Delta-Conic hull.

11 Meter
LOA 39'9"
Beam 14' 3"
Draft 3' 3"
Displacement (Dry) 16,800 lbs
Freeboard
Forward 5' 5"
Aft 3' 7"
Main Cabin
Length 12' 2"
Width 12' 0"
Headroom 6' 6 1/2"
Cockpit 170 sq. ft.
Std. Fuel Capacity 350 gallons
Fresh Water Capacity 100 gallons
Height from Waterline
To Windshield 8' 10"
To Med Arch 9' 4"

10.8 Meter Express
LOA 39' 4" (Hull length 36' 5")
Beam 13' 2"
Draft 3' 7"
Displacement (Dry) 17,500 lbs
Freeboard
Forward 4' 6"
Aft 3' 8"
Main Cabin
Length 9'8"
Width 9'10"
Headroom 6'4"
Cockpit 108 sq. ft
Std. Fuel Capacity 280 gallons
Fresh Water Capacity 70 gallons
Height from Waterline
To Windshield 8'2"
To Med Arch 9'5"

Two things to notice are displacement and draft. The 11 Meter is a larger boat with a an extra foot length and an extra foot of width. However, the 10.8 is about 700 pounds heavier and about 4" deeper.

One of the reasons for the weight difference, and again, this comes from John Leed, is that the 10.8 Meter had a solid fiberglass hull in lieu of the cored system. Additionally, the stringer system is a hollow molded fiberglass which is a complete liner system throughout the boat.

The following article was produced by Marine Surveyor David Pascoe in regards to the Carver 370, which is the Carver version of the 10.8 Meter Express. David Pascoe really had nothing positive to say about the build quality of this boat, including its highly inadequate use of fiberglass. He reported that the hull was 1/4" thick:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/Carver370.htm

I had an opportunity to remove a through hull drain plug on the 10.8 Meter Express that was located in the mid cabin area, and rebedded it before the launch. The thickness of the hull in that area of the 10.8 Meter Express was over 2" thick. There has been no dilamination on the boat. The boat was surveyed last year, and the surveyor stated that is was one of the dryest and most solid hulls he has surveyed. I can only deduct that the build quality of the Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express and the subsequent Carver Trojan Model 370 may be different.

NOTE: "Boatbuilder" Charlie, who was senior managment at Trojan Yachts during the build of this boat, and the subsequent transition to Carver stated that the 10.8 Meter Express was the only Trojan model carried over, and that Carver highly modified the 10.8 Express to simplify manufacturing.
Last edited by todd brinkerhoff on Fri May 03, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

Suggested Retail Prices - Effective June 1, 1990

The 10.8 Meter Express (Model 360) with Twin Model 454 Crusaders with Raw Water Cooling was $193,000.

The 502 CID Crusader option was $ 7,700
The 3116 TA 300 Caterpillar Diesel option was $40,000

Fresh Water Cooling was a $2,280 option.

My boat would have retailed in 1991 for $232,820 with all of its listed options.

The Virginia Boat and Yacht Marina purchased the boat at wholesale in July of 1990 for $185,000. (A bit of a mark up huh?)
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

Replacement Value - $308,500
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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todd brinkerhoff
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Posts: 696
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

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1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

Image
http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
todd brinkerhoff
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Post by todd brinkerhoff »

From BoatU.S. Marine Insurance
Sporty express cruiser was introduced by Trojan just before the company declared bankruptcy in 1992. Spacious mid-cabin interior with private bow stateroom boats full galley, convertible dinette, head with separate stall shower. Entire deck aft of helm can be raised at the push of a button for engine access. Note twin transom gates, foredeck sun pad, sport-style dash design. Deep-V hull delivers impressive big-water ride. Twin 355hp V-drive gas engines cruise at 18 knots and reach 26-28 knots wide open.

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1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

Image
http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
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