Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

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canuckkb
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Location: Lunenburg, Ontario

Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

Hello,
I was hoping that somebody may be able to shed some light on a problem that has been bugging me all summer long. I had purchase my 36’ TriFly late last fall and immediately had it shrinkwrapped. We launched at the beginning of July and floated it from Lake Simcoe, to Honey Harbour. This is about a 9 hour run with 4 locks, and always running at 1500 rpm or less. We spent about a week in/around Beausoleil Island and Honey Harbour area, then had it pulled out and hauled to it’s new home in Goderich Ontario.

On this trip, we had a problem that seemed to be harder to diagnose than first thought. I had 3 different mechanics look at it while on route, however it seems that the nature of the problem makes it difficult to fix. Therefore I have been poking away at it in my spare time. The boat is powered by twin Chrysler 280’s (400 cu”) and is a 1976. Both engines have been upgraded from points and condenser, to electronic ignition by the previous owner. The issue that I am having is that the starboard engine stalls without warning after varying time ran. This time can be anywhere from 20 min to 1 ½ hours, and it appears to be shutting down electrically. When it stalls, it just stops. There is no rough idling or chugging. When it stalls, it usually will not restart and run until it has sat from half an hour or so, at which time it restart and runs perfectly. If I try to restart it, it will fire right away but it will stall immediately. Now today was different. It ran for maybe 20 to 25 minutes, then stalled. I attempted to restart it several times, in which it would stall immediately. After about 10 attempts, it ran when I pumped the throttle to full throttle, it gave a few stumbles, it then ran perfectly. After about an hour I shut it off because I was leaving. I say that it appears to be electrical, however I do not know that for sure. I have been trying to fix it myself, because that is the kind of guy I am, however 4 months later I am scratching my ever balding head.

Here are the things that I have tried, and the problem continued on the same engine and did not appear to be effected in either a good or bad way.
Normally it would draw off of it’s own fuel tank. I have tried isolating the starboard fuel tank and running both off of the Port.
Swapped all of the electrical components (ballast resistor, ignition coil, cap, rotor, etc) from one engine to the other, with the exception of the electronic ignition because it appears to pop riveted into place.
There appeared to be a lot of corrosion inside the distributor. I attempted to clean the contact between the electronic ignition and the distributor, however I was not able to easily remove the IE because the base end was pop riveted down. I carefully sprayed the base with penetrating oil, removed the gap adjustment screw, and worked it back and forth, then reset it.
Disconnected the tachs
Disconnected, cleaned, coated with dielectic grease, then reconnected, all of the electrical connection that I could find.
Replaced the fuel filter and fuel water separator.
Replaced the Waterpump impeller.

The one thing that I noticed was the voltage on the coil was around 5.8 volts. The good engine ran at 6.2 volts. However I have been told that it should be over 8 volts. However, I am not sure if that is true.

The boat is being pulled out for the season this coming Thursday. Are there any suggestions on what I can try between now and then, or are there any suggestions on what I should do or check while laid up for the season?

Thank you for reading this long post and I do appreciate any help.
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
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Big D
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by Big D »

Back to basics; as soon as it happens again, you need to check if you're actually getting spark or not.

That voltage is too low. Minimum 9 volts. Check connections, battery condition, etc. etc. Check the voltage before the resistor. If you have full voltage, you may have a defective resistor. You also need to find out if the electronic conversion kit installed requires a full 12 volts to operate properly. Some do and require that the ballast resistor be removed and an internal resistance coil be installed.
She was a 1969 36 ft wooden beauty with big blue 440s that we'll miss forever.
And thanks to the gang, 2012 Trojan Boater Of The Year
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canuckkb
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

Thank you for replying.
I know that I have full voltage going into the resister. I have a brand new alternator on the failing engine and a good working on the other. I have checked the voltage and when running, and have well over 12 volts. If I need a minimum of 9 volts, then I am not there with either engine. The starboard engine coil usually reads about 5.8 and the port at 6.2 volts. I have monkeyed with every connection that I can find and these reading have not changed. THe boat came with a spare resistor, and I have tried it with the same results, as well as swapping from port to starboard.
It looks like it may be a good idea for me to replace the electronic conversion kits anyways, as I do plan on taking at least one long trip a year on the boat. If they are not the problem, then I have ruled out that possibility and would then carry a back up.
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
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Big D
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by Big D »

When you read the low voltage, exactly which two points are you taking your reading from? Have you tried taking a reading without the engine running and key in run position?
She was a 1969 36 ft wooden beauty with big blue 440s that we'll miss forever.
And thanks to the gang, 2012 Trojan Boater Of The Year
Scorpion07
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by Scorpion07 »

I've been chasing this same exact demon for two years!
Same engine mods, tests, and trials. Except on the 318.
I have completely narrowed it down to electrical though, and it's got to be dead simple. I just can't find it.
Maybe between the two of us we can get this solved.
My port engine is dead stable and always works flawlessly.
Out of curiosity do you have a separate house battery? Just asking because I wonder if something turns on (bilge pumps, fridge, etc) and draws power from the battery's? Although I still have charge enough to to the engine over, which is far less current then it needs to run. I'm wondering if it's an ignition switch too?
FYI when I swapped to a new coil it ran perfect for a couple runs, then back to the same issue.
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canuckkb
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

With the key on, and the engine not started, I get 12+ volts. The same position on the coil, when the engine running gives me the 5.8 volts. I take this reading from the positive side of the coil to a ground on the engine block. Maybe I am not taking my voltage reading from the right position.
One other thing that I have done is switch the ignition keys on the fly bridge. I always started and drove from the upper helm and never use the lower helm. Could I have a faulty ignition switch on the lower helm?
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
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canuckkb
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

Hello Scorpion07
My boat is setup with a deap cycle battery per engine, and a battery bank which powers the fridge, windless, and starts the generator. For the port engine, which runs flawlessly, that battery also powers all of the 12 volt lights. On the starboard, which is the failing engine, that battery only serves that engine.
I had been told that the ignition key may be heating up internally and shutting it down, so I swapped from one engine to the other. THe problem remained. The one thing that I had not done is either isolated or swapped the ignition switches on the lower helm, because I never use the lower helm. Maybe I should.
I am sure that when you or I finally find the source of the problem, we will be amazed at how simple it was.
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
Scorpion07
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by Scorpion07 »

I'm absolutely positive it's a simple solution.
The thing that really stumps me is that my port battery is also the house, and it runs perfect. So the circuit with the least load (starboard) is the one with the issue.
One thing I've been doing with the electronics is isolating each engine from the other, because it seems like my port actually draws my starboard engine down at times. I disconnected a synchronizer gauge at the upper helm. I still have one at the lower though. My thinking is that it might be shorting internally? The only other mutual connections are at the emergency start solenoid and charger. Just started looking into that today.
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dfg4240
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by dfg4240 »

Not to throw a wrench into this but I seem to remember something like this from somebody but can't remember what forum I was in.
Turned out to be a bad ground-don't even remember if it was a battery ground or what also I had a problem with mine that turned out to be a coil which you already eliminated.
I did the standard check and pulled the coil wire out at the end which goes in the distributor and saw that it had spark so I passed on that. Checked everything else and saw that I was getting gas etc,etc.
I went down at night and just for the heck of it just lifted up the floor cover and cranked her over and there in the dark I could see the coil was leaking all over the place.
replaced coil and everything was and still is fine.
Point is in the dark if anything electrical is leaking to ground or somewhere else you might see it like I did. as for the bad ground,I know that it was the problem on that other boat.
I I can find it I will post it but I think you probably checked your electrical connections already.
5.8 volts is low-something is rely sucking some current somewhere. The 6.2 volts you get on the good engine, is that without the starboard engine running?. sorry to add to the confusion but I know I read about that somewhere.
I also read that the 1976 chrysler 280 was one of the worst in history for the carb they on it.
it was noted for stalling and it had something to do with a float problem and had thousands recalled.
david
Last edited by dfg4240 on Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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44Ydnar88
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by 44Ydnar88 »

This sounds a lot like a old gm one wire alternator, that is self exciting, externally regulated. These use a resistor wire to keep from back feeding the ignition, where it would keep running after the key is turned off. If these aren't wired right it it cooks the coils, some coils like the pertronix ones even the accel ones won't even fire without at least seven and a half,
76 F25 H/T Express
96 Baja 208 Islander
87 Baja 180 islander
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canuckkb
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

dfg4240 - I have done the night check and did not see any stray sparks. At the time it was running well. I have not watched it as it actually stalls. I tried to once, however I lost interest after about 1/2 hour and went and had a couple beers at the campfire. I have checked the grounds and felt that they looked OK. Maybe they are not. I will play with it again. The boat is about 45 minutes away. They are pulling it out on Thursday morning so I will get up early and try again in the morning. These voltages do not change with one or both engines running. As for the carb, I have not heard that these were a problem. If I did have a carb float problem, wouldn't the engine stumble before stalling? If it stalls again, I will pump the carb and see if I have any gas.

44Ydnar88 - When I got the boat the alternator wire was melted. The alt had one main positive and a wire to the voltage regulator. I took the alt off and had it checked. It was shorted out inside. I them bought and installed a brand new alternator, and replaced the main wire. This Alt has an internal voltage regulator, so I disconnected the exsisting VR. I think that I did this properly. Maybe not.
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
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canuckkb
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

Hey Mike
Yes the ECU's are mopar. One of them looks obviously newer than the other, however both of them have been on either engine. The ECU's are not blue. They are more of a light brass color. They do say MOPAR on them. These engines have the resistor with 4 wire -2 on each end, and the there are two oil pressure sending unit.
I guess that I assumed that the other engine was on the verge of cutting out and / or if I was able to bring the voltage up a small amount on the bad engine, things would magically get better.
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
larryeddington
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by larryeddington »

Well when I to this f28 from PO he could not make one of the engines run. It took just a few days to determine the 5 pin plug to the ECU (transistor ignition) did not have screws holding them tight. They came from the factory with them. Wiggled the connector very hard and voila engine jumped to life. You can see where the screws should be in the center of the connector to the ECU. Another time the 40 am breaker popped and same kind of result. Reset it and again runs fine. Why it popped, do not know yet, but the missing locking screws were clear.

Another intermittent anomaly was found at the 8 pin plug that connects the engine to the boat wiring harness, One of the pins corroded off and caused intermittent problems. Luckily I had another set of connectors and problem solved.

Good Luck.
Larry Eddington
1984 F-36 Tri Cabin "The Phoenix II"
1978 F-28 "The Phoenix"
Fish Master 2350 Bay Boat
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canuckkb
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Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

I am assuming that the ballast are correct and connected properly. The ballast has a small notch and the wire connector has a tab which fits into this notch. There is no way to reverse. I have a wiring diagram, and spent some time tracing wires. It appeared that all wires between the ECU, ballast, and ignition coil was connected properly. There is a small screw on the ECU wiring harness, and I have had the harness, as well as the 8 pin connector apart, and they appeared to be in good condition. I applied a small amount of dielectric grease to the pins and reconnected.
About the oil pressure sending unit. This is something that I have never really looked into. My guages appear to be working properly, however I have not traced the wires. I will look at that Thursday morning.
Thank everybody for their suggestions.
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
User avatar
canuckkb
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Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:00 pm
Location: Lunenburg, Ontario

Re: Starboard Engine Stalling Without Warning.

Post by canuckkb »

I am assuming that the ballast are correct and connected properly. The ballast has a small notch and the wire connector has a tab which fits into this notch. There is no way to reverse. I have a wiring diagram, and spent some time tracing wires. It appeared that all wires between the ECU, ballast, and ignition coil was connected properly. There is a small screw on the ECU wiring harness, and I have had the harness, as well as the 8 pin connector apart, and they appeared to be in good condition. I applied a small amount of dielectric grease to the pins and reconnected.
About the oil pressure sending unit. This is something that I have never really looked into. My guages appear to be working properly, however I have not traced the wires. I will look at that Thursday morning.
Thank everybody for their suggestions.
76' 360 Tri-Fly
82' 260 SeaRay Sundancer
00' 200 Seahunt
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