New Member with questions after sea trial

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Troy-Sodus Point
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New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by Troy-Sodus Point »

Hi everyone, I have been reading this forum for almost a year while looking for a Trojan to call my own. My boating experience dates back to the 80's, and 90's and all were twin screw charter boats on Lake Ontario. After looking at a few boats, I came across a 1974 F 32 that filled my requirement of being located where I could bring to my home port via water. The boat showed very clean and well taken care of, and I went forward with a survey that ended up being favorable, with no structural issues. Today I took it for a sea trial and a few things concern me.
1. The boat is powered by twin 318's with 14X12 props. This boat at 1900 rpm seemed to be the upper end of Hull Speed (just before the bow rises, around 8 mph) at 3000 the boat still was not up on plane. The boat pretty much has lived its life on the Trent-Severn waterway and was used at Hull Speed, hence the reason why it was under propped. Is this under propped condition doing harm? Am I going to be losing a lot of fuel economy?
2. The Port side stuffing box has a very steady drip, while the starboard side doesn't drip at all. The starboard shaft however had quite a vibration for the first few minutes underway, but then cleared right up. What would cause these variations?
3. There is a leak coming from a screw hole in the ceiling of the salon towards the aft of the port side. The screw hole appears to be from drapes or blinds that were once there. I can't tell from going up to the bridge to find out where the water is coming from. The bridge decking and core were replaced last year from the aft end of the bridge to the console. Any ideas?
4. The inboard riser on the starboard engine has a slow drip coming from one of the bolts toward the exit end of the riser. I haven't tried to tighten it to see if maybe it was just loose.
5. The salon windows on the starboard side will not open, however the port side opened fine. Is this a hard fix without ending up breaking something?
6. The Generator does not work, however the owner is going to get a diagnosis and go from there.

Any thoughts, advice or concerns would be well appreciated.

Thanks,

Troy
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prowlersfish
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by prowlersfish »

I will try to help the best I can without being hands on . But need some more info

The F32 came 2 ways with 318 so don't be so sure its under propped . The F32 with 318s came with both 1 to 1 and a reduction gear trans (1.5 to 1 I believe) the 1 to 1 uses a 14X10 prop while the 1.5 to one used 16X15 prop

Do you know if you have a reduction gear or 1 to 1 ?

What speed where you getting at 3000 rpm ?

is the bottom / running gear clean ?

The drip from the packing .. may need tightening or repacking .

vibration could have been growth on the running gear , engine running poorly or running gear damage
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Troy-Sodus Point
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by Troy-Sodus Point »

Thanks for the reply Prowlersfish,

I do not know if the velvet drives are 1:1 or 1.5:1. The surveys (his from 07 and mine from last month) both simply refer to them as being borg warner velvet drives. I will e-mail the owner and ask (I am 2.5 hours away from the boat)

The speed at 3000 rpm was around 10-13 mph

The bottom of the boat was redone a few years ago and still looks like it was just done.

The engines ran flawlessly, started very easy and ran very smooth throughout the trial. Beginning to believe that the shaft vibration was something on the running gear as you suggested. I will check to see if this condition repeats itself the next time I am at the boat.

When talking with the owner about the props, he told me that the previous owners were sailboaters, and they actually had SMALLER props on it to the point where the boat was still at hull speed approaching 3000 rpm. He put the 14X12's in because they were readily available at the time he had the boat out of the water. The current owner has had this boat for 13 years and it just appears that he has been pretty good in the care, maintanance, and record keeping. It is hard to believe the age of this boat by appearances. I would love to put up some pics, but have to figure out how to upload them.
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prowlersfish
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by prowlersfish »

Did you see the bottom out of the water ? Do you have photos of the transmissions as I can tell if they are 1 to 1 or not .

Did you try WOT > if so what was the rpm ?


It could very well be under propped assuming the info your given is correct and bottom clean . BUT ( always a but ) I have found when people prop just to run hull speed they tend to over prop thinking they will save fuel by reducing rpm (false )


I am suprize that gear ratio was not noted on the survery . what about shaft size ?
Boating is good for the soul
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Life is to short for a ugly boat :D
Troy-Sodus Point
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by Troy-Sodus Point »

The boat was out of the water for both my initial viewing, and the survey I had done. The bottom looked pretty good. The owner has responded to me stating that the velvet drives are 1:1. The survey notes the serial numbers of the drives (would that help?) and that the shaft size was 1.25". I did not try WOT because I made the assumption that the boat was underpropped, as well as the owner telling me he has never had the engines over 3500rpm, and very resistant. I never considered that the drives could be 1:1.
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by prowlersfish »

The gear numbers should help ( as would a photo ) ,If it is 1 to1 your speed numbers seem way off assuming clean props & shafts and hull .
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bjanakos
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by bjanakos »

I wouldn't want you to go WOT either... There is not reason for that except to waste gas or break something.

With that being said, once you get your prop/tranny sorted out it sounds like you have an average 40 year old boat.
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

You need to be able to get to the manufactures wot to ensure you are properly propped. If you can't reach it, it's a sign something is wrong. In this case, it may be more than improper prop. Everyone should know, and occasionally go to wot to see if everything is running right, or if your bottom needs cleaning. I currently can't reach my wot and know that I need a tune-up.
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by captainmaniac »

bjanakos wrote:I wouldn't want you to go WOT either... There is not reason for that except to waste gas or break something.

With that being said, once you get your prop/tranny sorted out it sounds like you have an average 40 year old boat.
Sorry BJ... but you are blowing smoke.

13-14 knots at 3000 RPM is not "an average 40 year old boat". It means something is wrong. Maybe props, maybe engines, maybe trim ... but something is wrong. This boat should be doing 16 knots minimum, potentially 18-20 knots at 3000 RPM, even with 318s.

If the bottom is not buggered or covered in other fouling, it is under propped or the engines have an issue, or trim was WAY OFF. Could be timing, advance, fuel filters, vents, etc.. but something is not right.

On a separate comment : If I was buying a boat and doing a sea trial, and the owner told me I wasn't allowed to go over a specific RPM for any length of time -- no sale. Any boat should support WOT for a minute or two without fear, and if it can't handle that, there is something wrong (so you shouldn't buy it!). Sometimes you are out on the water and conditions turn bad -- if needed, you SHOULD be able to hammer the throttles and get the he** out of harms way as quickly as possible. That's why you buy a powerboat and not a sailboat.

If you buy a boat where you can never really get to WOT, you could be putting lives at risk. Don't let someone con you into buying a boat that can't go like he** when truly needed. If they won't let you see what he** is -- they are trying to take advantage of you.
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by prowlersfish »

todd brinkerhoff wrote:You need to be able to get to the manufactures wot to ensure you are properly propped. If you can't reach it, it's a sign something is wrong. In this case, it may be more than improper prop. Everyone should know, and occasionally go to wot to see if everything is running right, or if your bottom needs cleaning. I currently can't reach my wot and know that I need a tune-up.
X2


Troy ,
at 3000 you said the boat was not on plane , what speed did you get at 3000 ? and how did you check the speed
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Troy-Sodus Point
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by Troy-Sodus Point »

Here are the serial numbers for the tranny's: Port-98530 Starboard-10021, sorry I do not have any pics of these. The survey also has these props at 14x10 the owner states they are 14x12. When running at 3000 rpm the we were having issues with the onboard GPS (antennea issue, was resolved afterwords). He was measuring speed with a gps app. on his i-phone, which told us 13. So when we were out on the water, he slowly increased the rpms up to 3000. At that engine speed the bow was lifting, but not on plane. Would this even be enough horsepower to bring this boat up on plane, or would you have to hit lets say 3500 to get up, then throttle back to settle in at cruising speed. I agree that I need this boat to be able to plane out and move for safety sake.

Troy
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bjanakos
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by bjanakos »

I will humbly disagree. You guys have already determined that there is a prop issue without going to WOT, so that theory is bunk.

And thanks for reading thoroughly because you all took it wrong. I mentioned all the other issues OTHER than his prop/tranny issue were average complaints for a 40 year old boat.
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

bjanakos wrote:I will humbly disagree. You guys have already determined that there is a prop issue without going to WOT, so that theory is bunk.

And thanks for reading thoroughly because you all took it wrong. I mentioned all the other issues OTHER than his prop/tranny issue were average complaints for a 40 year old boat.
I would say that it is more than a prop issue. I can speak for myself and my boat. I bought my boat from a guy who had never taken the boat over 1800 rpms. I will say that the Crusader 454's will hide a lot of issues and still jug along at a low rpm. I was probably the first person to bring it up to wot in several years and when we did for a survey, we discovered several issues, which the previous owner had to remedy prior to closing. The boat would have run at 1500 rpms comfortably for years, and noone would have known any differently. If you are unwilling to bring your boat to WOT for a period of time a few times a season, you may never know about issues until they are too late.

I will say that I am one of those guys that putt around at my fuel efficient (the term makes me laugh with my 454's) 1500 RPM'S for a majority of the time. But every 2 to 3 weeks, I will run the boat hard for a couple of minutes and monitor my speed, water temp, oil pressure, and engine sounds to make sure there are not issues. As I said, I recently found that I can not make my WOT, and know that I need a tune up.

...And I have a 55 year old boat ('61 Century Raven with a Gray marine 327) and I do the same thing.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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todd brinkerhoff
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

Troy-Sodus Point wrote:Here are the serial numbers for the tranny's: Port-98530 Starboard-10021, sorry I do not have any pics of these. The survey also has these props at 14x10 the owner states they are 14x12. When running at 3000 rpm the we were having issues with the onboard GPS (antennea issue, was resolved afterwords). He was measuring speed with a gps app. on his i-phone, which told us 13. So when we were out on the water, he slowly increased the rpms up to 3000. At that engine speed the bow was lifting, but not on plane. Would this even be enough horsepower to bring this boat up on plane, or would you have to hit lets say 3500 to get up, then throttle back to settle in at cruising speed. I agree that I need this boat to be able to plane out and move for safety sake.

Troy
Troy,

I have a completely different boat and hull, but I would think you need 16 or 17 to plane out. Are you using trim tabs? They should be down to assist with getting to plane. My method of getting on plane is to move the throttle smoothly (not jamming) to full throttle with tabs down. Once on plane, I bring the throttles back and adjust my tabs for your most efficient cruising speed. I bring my throttle back to 3000 and bring my tabs up. You have a significantly flatter bottom, so your potential cruise speed will probably be less, however, you still need to break through the front wave to get your boat on plane.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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prowlersfish
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Re: New Member with questions after sea trial

Post by prowlersfish »

bjanakos wrote:I will humbly disagree. You guys have already determined that there is a prop issue without going to WOT, so that theory is bunk.
We Have ? we are looking at it only because of info given




Troy , I will look up your trans info tonight
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Life is to short for a ugly boat :D
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