New member with 1st wooden boat

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nas90tdi
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New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by nas90tdi »

I picked up a 1965 Seabreeze today. I have had my eye on every wooden boat I have seen for most of my life, I was always afraid to pull the trigger. But, this one came at a price I thought was more than fair and I figure for the amount of money, I have spent far more on far stupider things, so why not.

I have done mountains of research with mountains more to do, but have a couple of specific questions I would like opinions on. I have seen some of these discussed in my searching on the forum, but thought I would introduce myself and get peoples current thoughts on some things.

The boat I bought has no rot or soft spots I can find on hull or framing. The only real soft spots I found are on trim boards around the cabin windows. Interior is sound with cosmetic repairs needing made. Cabin roof and foredeck are both rock solid.

The house wiring appears to have all be upgraded and new inverter installed. Previous owner stated the only things he knows for certain do not work are the fuel gauge and the pump on the toilet. So, no real issues there. Engine starts good and runs very smooth in the few seconds I let it idle out of the water. I will get a hose connection into it and let it run some more before I put it back into the water. I just didn't want to melt the sea pump down since it cranked and dropped into a nice idle immediately. I spoke to the harbor master at marina boat was stored at and he reports that he never saw any issues with the boat while it was there and semi regular day trips taken on it. I am a finish carpenter by trade with a couple of decades of experience doing high end residential and commercial. So, the wood repair portion of this is not really an issue. as long as it is above the water line. Lack of knowledge makes me more nervous about any below the water lie repairs. My real question involves coatings.

The boat has been out of the water on a trailer for about 6 weeks. I want to refinish the outer hull and get it back into the water. Then I will tackle the decks and upper trim a section at a time.

What is the best way to go about cleaning and refinishing the hull? I don't want to make a huge mess because of my lack of knowledge about wood boats. I have small places peeling in a few places ,particularly on the anti foul paint on the bottom. So, I want to make sure I get that cleaned back really well so new paint will adhere properly. I also have one screw head on bottom near transom that the putty or whatever has popped out and the owner said he found a small stream of water entering at that location while underway. So, I am interested in what is the best thing to refill that hole after verifying that the screw is tight.

Also I would be interested in thoughts for upper deck and rail coatings and paint for cabin roof and vertical surfaces.

And, is it acceptable to use my pressure washer on the hull and decks?

Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts. I am interested in anything I might have forgotten or advice on the care and keeping of a wooden boat.

Here are some pictures, they are all from the ad for the boat, I haven't taken any yet.

http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/nas90 ... 0Seabreeze
todd brinkerhoff
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

I'm a big fan of the Smith's epoxy products, especially their clear penetrating epoxy (CPES) on my wooden boat. Their epoxy resins are wood based, and remain flexible. I prepped my bottom with enouph coats of CPES on a bare wood hull until the wood wouldn't absorb any more epoxy. Then, while the epoxy was still tacky, I applied 4 coats of Interlux 2000e epoxy barrier coat. When that was dry, I added 2 coats of bottom paint.

As far as filling holes below the waterline, again, I go back to a Smith's product, called "fill-it". Easy to mix and work with.

For paints, I like the Interlux Brightside. It's easy to brush and does well with tipping. Any varnishing work is done with Epifanes varnish.

Good luck. She looks like a beauty.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
nas90tdi
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by nas90tdi »

Thanks for the info. That gives me a nice place to start researching. It seems that there are a million products that claim to work, but I know from all my old British car restorations, that most of those are just relabeled with a fancy new label and do not actually produce any better of a results. Or, react poorly with an old product already on the car/boat, whatever.

Any suggestions for resealing the keel line to make sure it good seal?

The previous owner did something I wholeheartedly disagree with. He put the boat on a roller trailer. I am not a fan of roller trailers due to uneven support between stringers. I would assume this problem is 10X as critical on a wooden hull. I intend to get it sealed up and painted and back in the water as soon as possible to minimize wood shrinkage. But I am concerned about any flexing along the keel line that was done with the rollers. I can see that he did not completely float the boat onto the trailer but actually drove it onto the front rollers. It has left lines on the growth on the bottom and chipped loose paint loose from the weight of the boat on the rollers. So, I am seeing what looks like the edge of the sealant popped slightly. This may just be a normal situation, but would like some input for sure.
todd brinkerhoff
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

For caulking, I use the 3m products, 4000 UV, 4200, and 5200. For your keel, I would go with 5200. Just understand that it is considered permanent. The product has to be used on sturdy, clean wood. Again, if I was going to do it, I would ensure I has solid, clean, sanded seams. I would prime it with CPES, and then apply 5200 while the epoxy was just tacky.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
nas90tdi
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by nas90tdi »

Thanks. That was actually the leaning I had. I have used the 5200 for years on my fiberglass boats. It is definitely a handful to get off a couple of years later. But ,is dependable to stick and stay. I just wasn't sure about the wood.
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captainmaniac
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by captainmaniac »

A bunch of thoughts here...

Above and below waterline, BoatLife or 3M marine sealants or calking are usually a safe bet. Just make sure you are using the right one for the application (ie make sure it is for underwater or above waterline use).

For failing bottom paint - proper preparation can help a repair stick, but more important is to ensure compatibility between bottom paints. Given different manufacturers and paint types, not all paints will adhere to all other paints. You can't put a hard antifouling over a soft antifouling. But there could also be chemical conflicts between different brands. And antifouling paint will do you no good unless it is the right kind of paint for the environment you intend to use the boat in. You should find out what the previous owner has been using for bottom paint and figure out what to do based on that. You may choose to pick a paint that is compatible with overcoating, or if you choose a paint that is not fully compatible, you may need to fully remove all prior antifouling. I had a fun time doing this a few years ago - I think the PO used glossy house paint...

For hull sides, you simply need proper sanding, filling, priming, and repainting for peeling spots. Brightside is an option for painting, but cheaper options exist. Brightside info is available at http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/default.aspx. Basically you are painting wood, so any good wood paint will work fine. Is it the side of a boat or a garage? Not a lot of difference here other than you probably want glossy paint on the boat.

Your microwave and fridge are not original - my parent's 1969 Sea Skiff had a hotplate and an ice box.

Cockpit and decking around it looks a bit rough (stained, weathered, blackened) in the photos. I would be apprehensive about using a power washer on hull sides and decking for the damage it could do. For hull sides I would suggest a good, honest scrubbing (if you already have paint peeling, you don't want to hit that with a 1000psi power washer!) followed by proper sanding after everything is dry. For decking I would suggest using a 2 part Teak cleaner (acid / base) to clean and bleach it, then coat with what you want. Some people prefer the grey/weathered look. I prefer a more rich look (hence recommend Cetol). Used it on my parent's '69 for years, and continue to use it on my '79 F32 (swim platform, cabin/flybridge face plates, steps to the flybridge, a mix of Epiphanes products for the bow pulpit).

Here are links to my 'wood finishes' gallery:
Wood Finish examples (part 1)
https://www.trojanboats.net/wforum/view ... f=1&t=3206

Wood Finish examples (part 2)
https://www.trojanboats.net/wforum/view ... =1&t=12738

Varnish - I agree that Epiphanes is a good product to use (that's what's on the wheel in my salon). Just use it (or any other varnish) on surfaces people won't stand on. You don't want varnish on surfaces that will be 'under foot', because it gets slippery when wet. Base Cetol products don't (aside from Cetol gloss).

Roller trailer - extremely bad idea for a wood hull. Wooden boats need to be supported on their keels, with bracing at the chines to keep boat from tipping. Supporting weight on the hull bottom is likely to warp or distort the hull, affecting performance, behavior in the water, and potentially safety (ie leaks or weakened plywood bottom sheets). If you are seeing sealant 'popping' - that is a sign that you really need to get this thing back in the water and see what (if any) damage has been done, and make your final decision based on that.
Last edited by captainmaniac on Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
nas90tdi
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by nas90tdi »

Thank Captain. All good advice. I was thinking exactly the same about the varnish. I assumed it would be slick when wet.
The teak decks I am going to just use an Oxalic Acid wash on them and refinish. I am with you on the richer look. I hate to see weathered looking decks. I am going to pull all the floor hatches and rebuild them before I finish the rear deck. The screws that hold all the rails they sit on are getting loose and worn. Plus all that old metal needs repainting.

As far as peeling on the hull itself, I actually have very little till it gets near the water line. And a bit on cabin sides. I did find a receipt for a lift ,wash and paint and relaunch for the bottom from a boatyard just south of me. I am going to give them a call and see if they can tell me what they used on it. It was in 2010. I am just guessing here, but that is when the receipts for repairs stopped in the binder in the boat. So, I am assuming that is how it got to be in this shape. I think I am fortunate in getting the boat when I did. I bet by next season I wouldn't have touched it. This should be a fairly easy turn around with ongoing projects after it is floating again. As I am working on it I am finding it to be really solid with extremely minor things that have started to get wet. Like I say though, by next summer, it would have been rotted to hell in back at those cabin corners.

I am nervous about it having being put on the trailer myself. I find those roller trailers to be the stupidest thing in the world for a big V bottom boat. Far too many directions they are applying pinpoint pressure without distributing the load to structural members. I always refused to use them on my big fiberglass boats even. Possibly my one saving thing here is at is a large many roller trailer with a lot width on the rows to help spread the load. I am considering after I talk the boatyard that did the last bottom paint seeing what they would charge me to sling it, look at the bottom, possibly paint and seal it and put it in the water. It would be a bit of a haul to where I want to store it by water, but I think that beats dragging it around over bumpy roads on that trailer.

Thanks for all the advice so far guys. I really do appreciate it. As I have worked on things topside I am realizing that it's just wood, which I am very familiar with. So ,it is less daunting. Really me one area of true concern is the bottom and mostly because of it being loaded on that damn trailer. And, I will say this about the small areas I saw that look like sealant lifting on the edges near the keel, that is turning up all over the boat as I am working on it. I may just be paranoid and it's just an unstuck edge from bad prep in 2010.
nas90tdi
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by nas90tdi »

Looked at your pictures. Yes, that is the look I am going for color wise. My rear deck outside the canvas is what got so black. I am not sure what they did. It doesn't have a drop of finish left on it. But the foredeck is nothing like that. It is peeling now and will have to be sanded and refinished, but doesn't have the extreme discoloration. I am thinking maybe it was varnished and the back oiled. I did find a rusted can of teak oil under a cabinet inside.

I noticed your railings. I actually have all of mine, they were off the boat for some strange reason. They guy had them stored in his hanger at the airport along with lots of misc. bits. I haven't even figured what all of them are. That is still very low priority unfortunately. I haven't even gotten to the list making stage yet, the list still is covered by the one line. Item # 1-All of it
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by jimbo36 »

todd brinkerhoff wrote:I'm a big fan of the Smith's epoxy products, especially their clear penetrating epoxy (CPES) on my wooden boat. Their epoxy resins are wood based, and remain flexible. I prepped my bottom with enouph coats of CPES on a bare wood hull until the wood wouldn't absorb any more epoxy. Then, while the epoxy was still tacky, I applied 4 coats of Interlux 2000e epoxy barrier coat. When that was dry, I added 2 coats of bottom paint.

As far as filling holes below the waterline, again, I go back to a Smith's product, called "fill-it". Easy to mix and work with.

For paints, I like the Interlux Brightside. It's easy to brush and does well with tipping. Any varnishing work is done with Epifanes varnish.

Good luck. She looks like a beauty.
+2 on this advice. My exact procedure for my '65 24' Sea Skiff restoration. I like Smiths CPES & Fill-it, Brightside, roll& tip, and inter Protect 2000. Just not a big Epifanes fan though. ( I find it a bit soft) I prefer Captains Flagship. Are you planning a restoration or a repair? Best of luck either way.
nas90tdi
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by nas90tdi »

Funny you mentioned the Epifanes. It was on sale at West Marine yesterday, so I picked up a quart to see how I liked it. I have cleaned up my transom rail because it had a few splits I wanted to open up and inject glue and clamp them. So while I was doing that I prepped about a foot of it and put a bit of the Epifanes on it. I like the look of it ok, but I wasn't sure how I felt about the application of it. It seems the are asking for far too much build up with the number of coats. That seems to me that it would be more prone to lifting and cracking with such so many mils of sealer. Maybe not, just a feeling I had.

I am not doing a restore, just a very thorough catch up on maintenance. I have a tendency to go to far with rebuilding things, so I am trying to reign myself in and remember that it was a seaworthy boat already and just needs caught up and used for the short term. I figure that is a good way for me to get a feel for what maintaining a wood boat is like once it is on the water with ongoing projects.

One question I have is . Where my deck meets the bottom gunwale board and transom. It was sealed with black sealant, but it was very loose and also appeared that it had been piled on top of old sealant. I am going to dig all of that out and do a nice clean line of sealant. Should that be sealed after or before the deck and gunwale boards are refinished?

I was going to ask where the cabin window drains were. I had looked all over for them. But, my brother is doing the cabin work for me getting ready for paint and he found them. Someone had puttied them closed and painted over them. I am guessing that is why the windows leaked like they did. I am glad the boat was in covered moorage. That could have made for a disaster as deep as the window tracks are.
todd brinkerhoff
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

I prefer to use caulk on either clean wood, or epoxied wood. The order for me is; Stain, seal with CPES, caulk, then finish.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
nas90tdi
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by nas90tdi »

Educate me about something if you wouldn't mind. The bilge. I have been accused of being far to concerned about my bilge in the past, so this boat raises a conundrum for me.
I assume that any kind of coating that encapsulates the wood is a bad thing right? I have always painted my bilges with white epoxy. 2 reasons for that. The bright white color makes it easier to see in there. And I can wipe up anything that gets spilled. But these bilges seem to be bare wood. Along with 50 years of misc small debris in there. I noticed this really badly while giving my deck its first cleaning. Water runs in there. Also, I see how it would get in there even after I seal the edges ect. It can come in around engine hatches and I know the packing on the prop shaft needs to leak a bit. I guess my question is this. Is that not an amount of water to be concerned about on the wood? At what point would it be too much water. It seems that due to the location of the rudder shaft and arm that the bilge pump is never actually in the lowest point of the boat.

Sorry for the million questions. I am trying to get everything in my head as quickly as possible. It's a new spin on my old hobby. So, lots of new questions and concerns.
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aaronbocknek
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by aaronbocknek »

what a really cool thread. i'm anxious to read more and more. looking forward to it. and welcome to the forum!!
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todd brinkerhoff
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by todd brinkerhoff »

nas90tdi wrote:Educate me about something if you wouldn't mind. The bilge. I have been accused of being far to concerned about my bilge in the past, so this boat raises a conundrum for me.
I assume that any kind of coating that encapsulates the wood is a bad thing right? I have always painted my bilges with white epoxy. 2 reasons for that. The bright white color makes it easier to see in there. And I can wipe up anything that gets spilled. But these bilges seem to be bare wood. Along with 50 years of misc small debris in there. I noticed this really badly while giving my deck its first cleaning. Water runs in there. Also, I see how it would get in there even after I seal the edges ect. It can come in around engine hatches and I know the packing on the prop shaft needs to leak a bit. I guess my question is this. Is that not an amount of water to be concerned about on the wood? At what point would it be too much water. It seems that due to the location of the rudder shaft and arm that the bilge pump is never actually in the lowest point of the boat.

Sorry for the million questions. I am trying to get everything in my head as quickly as possible. It's a new spin on my old hobby. So, lots of new questions and concerns.
Yes. Encapsulating your wood would eventually cause rotting, which in turn would delaminate any epoxy on the wood. The only exception would be brand new, stable, dry wood. For my bilges, I did 1-2 coats of CPES first. This product will not "encapsulate" the wood, as it absorbs into the fibers of the wood itself and will still allow it to breath and expand. I only use epoxy paint on the outside, as this is where the wood will be wet the most. On the inside bilge area, again after a couple coats of CPES, I use Interlux Bilge Cote. It is specifically designed to resist oils, and comes in white or gray. I have found the bilge to be pretty easy to clean with Bilge Cote.
1991 Trojan International 10.8 Meter Express hull# 003 - 454 Crusaders
1961 Century Raven 22 - Gray Marine 327

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http://s1086.photobucket.com/home/Todd_ ... hoff/index
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captainmaniac
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Re: New member with 1st wooden boat

Post by captainmaniac »

I agree with the Bilge Cote recommendation. Also the plywood for the boat bottom will be Marine plywood, not regular ply, so is more resistant the effects of moisture.
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