Has anyone ever heard of a hollow keel cracking from ice?

[Lean Wolf]

I am curious has anyone has ever heard of a hollow keel cracking from ice expansion while on land in the winter? My F 44 is out of the water for the first time this winter and thought I'd ask the question.
Drew

[Stripermann2]

I suppose if water got into the keel and expanded when cold enough. But being dry with no intrusion of water, most likely not. (There's proper blocking of vessel to avoid keel damage while supported?)

[Commissionpoint]

I have heard of them getting crushed from blocking the boat on the keel. Thats a no-no.

As far as ice expansion, I would tend to think that it would pop the thin keel covering up before it would split the keel. Not really sure though.

I think I mentioned to you before that I have a garboard drain in my keel. I would reccomend such a retrofit to anyone concerned about standing water in the keel and sub freezing temps on land for an extended period. Other than that I think I would be getting in there with a vet vac at the end of the season if I had any doubts.

You got water in there now? Ice?

[Lean Wolf]

I am not sure if there is water in there. I found in records from a previous owner that they had the keel drained in the early 90s so I assume so. I would also hope that any freezing would cause issues with the false floor before structural issues but I am just hoping here... The boat is on land and it has been below freezing here for the last week and it has me worried. I should have drilled a hole in the keel a few weeks ago but did not. That being said, I am going to go down there on Sunday and drill a whole in it to let it drain if possible. The weather is going to warm up tomorrow so maybe if there is water in there, I will get lucky and it will drain out in the next 5 warm days.

How far above the lower most point of your keel is the garboard drain?

[Commissionpoint]

......I would also hope that any freezing would cause issues with the false floor before structural issues but I am just hoping here...

.........I should have drilled a hole in the keel a few weeks ago but did not. That being said, I am going to go down there on Sunday and drill a whole in it to let it drain if possible. The weather is going to warm up tomorrow so maybe if there is water in there, I will get lucky and it will drain out in the next 5 warm days.........

How far above the lower most point of your keel is the garboard drain?

My gut tells me the false floor would indeed take the brunt of it. The ones I have seen including my own aren't held in there with much. On the other hand the keel itself is rather robust by comparison.

I think if you put a half inch or 5/8ths inch hole in it you could then go back prior to launch and install a 3/4 or 7/8 garboard drain in it by just finishing your hole to the correct size depending on what drain you end up with.

My drain is Stbd side, lower rear of the keel. It occurs to me that if you put it too far aft or too low you will be into the structure of the keel and not in the cavity area. I'd like to say there is about 3/4 of an inch to an inch from the lower aft corner of the keel. Maybe a bit more. I will try to find you a pic.

[larryeddington]

IMO, seems to me that when ice freezes it would push in all directions, while true the thin top would surly be a week point, it seems lateral pressure would be there too. Many of our members our in cold climes, not seen much talk of keel freeze mostly odors coming from keel. The pull boats to keep from damage from ice lateral pressures, and on the water there is not containment up or down only laterally. Just saying. They should have the answer to this question.

[Commissionpoint]

IMO, seems to me that when ice freezes it would push in all directions.......

It expands in all directions true, but will ultimately go the furthest in the direction of least resistance.

You can do a little simulation at home in the freezer if you like. Get a couple plastic soda bottles and fill them with water. Put them both in the freezer, one with the cap on tight and one with a loose cap. The tight cap bottle will split, the loose cap bottle will eject the cap and ice will push out the top.

A similar effect would be a simple ice cube tray. No resistance on top so the ice expands upwards without blowing up the trays. if you sealed those trays up real good with something on top that was stronger than the tray material, the cubes would bust out the sides and bottom of the trays.

Rate of freeze also plays a part. It was -20*F here yesterday morning. Things act a little different in that kind of cold.

[comodave]

I opened the hollow keel on my F32 and it was almost full of water. I am sure that it was there for many years as it smelled terrible. Also there were no holes previous to me opening it. The boat has spent it's whole life in Michigan and was stored in unheated storage. So I am sure that the water had frozen several times, if not many more. The keel shows no signs of damage. I think the ice cube tray is a good analogy. Also the keel being a vee shape, the ice will exert the pressure upwards. That being said, I did not want the water in there for several reasons.

[mikeandanne]

commo---- mine was just the same as yours when I opened it except the water I got out was crystal clear like spring water,no smell---- I had the same thought!it had been in there for years and nothing----- the boat beside me had the keel full of foam which took two months to dry before they could repair the damage on the outside------ we just open the plug I installed under the stairs and suck any extra water out before storage and leave the plug out for the winter, this year there was little to no water in there---- Mike

[captainmaniac]

If you are going start drilling holes, make sure they are in the right place for what you are trying to accomplish. I am not a fan of drilling holes under the waterline if it can be avoided - one more thruhull is one more potential failure point. If you are going to install a plug that is only accessible from the outside, you either need to haul the boat or send in a diver if you ever need to check it out or snug it up.

Also take into account whether the boat is blocked bow up or bow down - not a lot of point adding the drain in a spot that is too 'high' based on how the boat is sitting, to actually drain it.

On my F32 a previous owner cut through the 'thin top' people are talking about, so it's not a 'sealed' area (kind of like the ice cube tray idea). After haulout I can use use a shop vac or siphon to get the majority of the water out, a bit more evaporates before the cold sets in, and I also add about a gallon of plumbing antifreeze to help lower the freezing point a bit more.

RE CPs comment "I have heard of them getting crushed from blocking the boat on the keel. Thats a no-no." ... maybe I am misunderstanding what he is trying to say.... Primary blocking should always be on the keel, with jack stands at the chines to keep the boat upright. The keel blocking should be taking the weight. If it is not blocked properly (ie one set of blocks is too tall or too short, or too far between blocking points) you might damage the keel or the hull in general, but done right there should be no problems.

[Commissionpoint]

RE CPs comment "I have heard of them getting crushed from blocking the boat on the keel. Thats a no-no." ... maybe I am misunderstanding what he is trying to say.... Primary blocking should always be on the keel, with jack stands at the chines to keep the boat upright. The keel blocking should be taking the weight. If it is not blocked properly (ie one set of blocks is too tall or too short, or too far between blocking points) you might damage the keel or the hull in general, but done right there should be no problems.

What I am saying is don't block it on the low point, but forward and aft of there. One up by the bow, and one on each side back by the transom. I don't use any stands, and the only boats around here I see using stands are sailboats without a cradle. Even the 38 Jefferson that is next to me this winter is done this way, and the F-30 behind me, and every boat I have seen.

Like many things, there is probably more than one way to skin a cat. I personally wouldn't put any serious weight on an F-32 "hollow keel" area. Everyone else is free to make their own decision on that matter.

[Cmount]

I just put a drain plug in. There was a lot of water in there so I am happy I decided to install the drain. I will try to send pictures.

[prowlersfish]

I always block them on the keel . But I do allow the stands to take some of the load . Stands should be near the hull Sides it they carry much of a load.

[Cmount]

Here is a picture... was amazed how much water came out and it stunk. Hosed it out from the hole I cut in the sub floor in the front to the back for about 20 mins and then bleached it. I will leave it open.

http://s814.photobucket.com/user/CJMOUN ... t=3&page=1

At the back of the keel on the starboard side.

[larryeddington]

For you that take boat out and block for winter, drain plug appears to be a great idea. For me I am going to figure out a way to pump it dry in the water, boat has a peculiar acetic odor when closed up during week. nothing in honeypot or bilge so odor must be coming from the dreaded hollow keel.