Trojan 2 - 3 Party System & the What Ifs

[aweimer]

I just bought it.. UPGRADE!

Serious though, i would love to have her. Very beautiful. Wife said i would need to sell the house to afford it though, or should i say "Admiral"

Thanks for sharing Aaron.

[aaronbocknek]

At the risk of being beat to death. I will say this although many here might disagree. I truly believe Carver had the hands full trying to live up to the Trojan name. It's my understanding that continuing the line was not an option. They set their sites high and did there best to do what some of you are saying

I don't know if you knew this or not, but the thing a makes most Trojan owners a little p-o'd with Carver, is that when they bought Trojan they chose to destroy all the molds for all the existing models. They guaranteed that no more would ever be produced, and that getting spare parts would be more of a challenge as well. My view is all they cared about was owning the name, and didn't really give a crap about the product. Today you can buy Carvers in several different names... a 'Trojan' is a Carver. A Marquis is also a Carver. They are just putting a different name on it so you don't know you are really buying a Carver product.

when i was talking to this older guy in annapolis in 2008, he said he was part of the 'wrecking crew' that went to lancaster to destroy the molds. he said it was the saddest day of his life. there were many 'line people' that begged carver management at the time to keep the line going as they could incorporate some of the unique techniques that carver used, such as the fiberglass inner hull etc.... ''absolutely not'' was the response from management. ''this would cannibalize the line of boats we produce'' was the underlying logic. they argued that if they incorporate the existing trojan line into the carver line, it would dilute the product. what a crock. they could have easily used the designs but again, only wanted the TROJAN name. he even said that one of the foremen from carver said,''i want every spare removed so that the trojan owners have to move to carver if they want to keep up''. fortunately there are those that saved some of the spares and continued the support system. he said the one thing that amazes him to this day is the devotion to the brand and the willingness to 1. keep the legacy going, and 2. do whatever it takes to fabricate parts. i must admit though, carver puts out a hell of a good product. they always have and hopefully, always will. but, i do think there was room for both product lines. needless to say, those of us that are devoted to the brand will continue to do what we can to keep our girls looking good. since the molds have been destroyed, there are several ways to keep the brand going i think. one is to have a company devoted to buying up some of the old trojans out on the market and doing refits as a way to keep them fresh and selling them once the are completed. another is to use computer technology to scan the boats and make molds from that and building another new product using modern techniques.

carver has not used the 'trojan' name for quite sometime and i believe that there is a 7-10 year 'use it or loose' it clause in marketing. perhaps they might be willing to sell the trojan name to someone just for that purpose. either way, i have a great looking tri cabin now, and will concentrate on keeping her sound and adding upgrades to her. she's mine for a long time--- i hope.

[RWS]

The Carver Trojans are great boats, no question.

Now imagine what you would have if your boat, exactly as it is had a Delta Conic hull underneath it.

It is my underatanding that the International molds were destroyed due to patent issues with th epatent owner.

I do not know why the F series molds went away.

Carver disowned everything from Lancaster, molds, parts, service, warranty, everything. For us the outcome was better, We have Beacon Marine and Marine Tech.

Essentially all Carver took was the name, the brand trademark, and the established value of the brand.

Carver donated some nice caps & shirts for the 2002 Resendvous in Stuart FL. Same logo type.

By the way, we would LOVE to see some pix of your Trojan.

RWS

[Audrey II]

I'm sure you all know better then I but it was my understanding that Carver only bought the name and where required to destroy the molds it was the deal they made. It's obviously a sore subject and one I'm not that well versed in so I will stay out of it. I just thought this is what I read or heard shortly after I bought my boat.
As for the hull design of my current boat due to the size and weight of the boat it handles like a dream, I can't imagine a smoother ride.

I'll stay away from topics like this is the future I don't want to wear out my welcome.

[RWS]

I'll stay away from topics like this is the future I don't want to wear out my welcome.

=========================================

It's O.K. . . . . . . .REALLY!

As long as you are buying the beer.

RWS

[summer storm]

OK, This is what I was told from a good friend of mine (sadly passed away 2 years ago) His name was Ron Pickle and before he worked for Hargrave yachts he was the VP of engineering for the Trojan F class boats for almost 20 years. He was mainly involved in the design side of the engineering systems on the boats. For example, you may have noticed that at a certain point the engine room venting moved from the hull on a 32 to the cabin sides, that would have been him, and the reason for that is a different story. Many a night was passed talking about the Trojan Carver deal and this is what he told me.

Even before Trojan went out of biz they were working on a new line of boats, the delta's and international lines. They felt that the F class boats were dated and like any boat model just became over priced because of adding equiptment to a hull that wasn't built for it in the first place. The F32 was pricing its self out of the market that it was designed for.

When the axe came down, the upper management (workers, not owners)tried to find a home for the Trojan line, investors, to buy up the molds and tooling and continue on a smaller scale. After Carver came in and bought the name and only the name, the molds and tooling were orphined. With out the Trojan name to put on a boat like the F-32 it wouldn't have been a F-32.

Ron was there when they (Trojan not Carver) cut up the molds, in his words, he said Doug, they are just molds and we had to dispose of them. It wasn't because the workers were angry at Carver, or to keep the legend alive. They were in the way.

Now he said he was a little sad to do this but it was because he knew that the boats he designed would never be built again and he was out of work.

Later in life he bought a 26 ft hardtop and he loved that boat, but he always reminded me that they were boat builders and they built boats for money, not for the love of it. There was no cult following at that time and the number of units out the door per month was on everyones mind not "how great that boat looks"

Now I will quote Ron about the Caver/Trojan boats, remember this is not me talking. "Carver builds good boats, but I can't get the image out of my head, boats moving down the line and a guy with a box of Trojan decals and a box of Carver decals, and that is the only thing that makes them different"

I love my 32, and yes I think it could be built and sold today and still look good, but my opionion does not count because I am not part of the target buyer. my limits are in the 40 to 50K range and a 2010 F-32 has to cost over 200K, maybe more.

NOTE I've tried to remember Ron's stories the best I can but it's still been years

[k9th]

Doug -

Thanks for all of the details and what an interesting story.

We here on this forum love our boats and don't have to deal with the financial side of a boat business and making and keeping it profitable - we are just passionate boaters. When I read your friend's statement about just putting boats out the back door, it reminded me that it was a business and the product was the boats we here love.

I work for a company where we make 200,000 of our bread and butter fuel transfer pumps every year. We don't get emotionally involved with it - it is a product we produce and provides our employment. Our Trojans were the same way to the owners and managers of the company - a product they produced to fill a need in the market. I am sure that many who worked there didn't even like boats and didn't care what the product was - they had a job to do and did it.

We here are dedicated to keeping a classic and beautifully designed boat alive and it is our passion that drives us - not business principles. I personally am glad that we have such a great boat to be passionate about and that as long as we care for our Trojans and keep them running and in good condition, they will continue on into future generations.

[rbcool]

Doug -

Thanks for all of the details and what an interesting story.

We here on this forum love our boats and don't have to deal with the financial side of a boat business and making and keeping it profitable - we are just passionate boaters. When I read your friend's statement about just putting boats out the back door, it reminded me that it was a business and the product was the boats we here love.

I work for a company where we make 200,000 of our bread and butter fuel transfer pumps every year. We don't get emotionally involved with it - it is a product we produce and provides our employment. Our Trojans were the same way to the owners and managers of the company - a product they produced to fill a need in the market. I am sure that many who worked there didn't even like boats and didn't care what the product was - they had a job to do and did it.

We here are dedicated to keeping a classic and beautifully designed boat alive and it is our passion that drives us - not business principles. I personally am glad that we have such a great boat to be passionate about and that as long as we care for our Trojans and keep them running and in good condition, they will continue on into future generations.

HERE HERE Tim !!! I'm raising my first Rum & Coke of the evening to you.

[JGedridge]

This is an interesting thread guys!

What about the International series that was supposed to be built by Bertram?......I know of 3 people in the area whos Trojans were built by Bertram and it indeed says it on the Trojan tag.....


Joe

[prowlersfish]

Both Bertram and Trojan where own by the same company for a time , Bertram Never built Trojan . the Bertram Name on the Trojans was Marketing . There really did not share much at all . But you will all ways find some one that will say there Trojan is on a Bertram hull , I even heard that on the F boats . any one that clams that the have a Bertram hull has never seen one its just a different hull . Just like the F boats and internationals , not better not worse just different for different uses .

[summer storm]

Ron Pickle told me that the Bertram/Trojan thing was a upper level parent company relationship. He said that he never had any contact with the Bertram guys and they did not share any tooling or engineering tips. They operated completely separate. He said that calling a Trojan a Bertram would be like calling a Hatteras a bowling ball, For those who don't know Hatteras was once owned by AMF, and among other things they made bowling equiptment.

[rbcool]

How 'bout them Cowboys

[alexander38]

Well after seeing some the post on this page I don't have much to say about the Carver buy out. But this weekend after a few drinks on the ICW I might.

[wowzer52]

Bowling balls and Harleys......hhmmmm. I wonder if the upper management at AMF had to much glue on the envelopes they licked.

[prowlersfish]

Ron Pickle told me that the Bertram/Trojan thing was a upper level parent company relationship. He said that he never had any contact with the Bertram guys and they did not share any tooling or engineering tips. They operated completely separate. He said that calling a Trojan a Bertram would be like calling a Hatteras a bowling ball, For those who don't know Hatteras was once owned by AMF, and among other things they made bowling equiptment.

Correct thats the same think John Leeds said , They shared the name for marketing is about it