Is a Trojan a worthy brand to restore

[RWS]

Also, as far as efficiency is concerned, results will vary, but I have nearly DOUBLED my efficiency from the 454's to the 6 cylinder turbodiesels.

The 30% factor stated is not correct.

This is a financial factor to be recomputed into the above discussion, however the results will be different depending on the vessel and the choice of repower.

Choose a Yanmar 4 cylinder turbo and save even more fuel.

I think there is a published magazine article from Mack Boring on this exact repower somewhere on the forum.

RWS

[gettaway]

RWS

Totally agree with you, like I said, I'd repower with diesels in a second if I could afford it!

[RWS]

I suppose it all boils down to this:

gas engines good = no repower

gas engines blown, worn or bad = time to re-evaluate the options

repair vs. replace. vs repower

RWS

[RWS]

So back to Todd, as the original poster.

A variety of information and opinions were posted in response to your original post.

Did you get the information you were seeking, and what is your current position on the issue?

What did you conclude, and what advice would you provide to a third party asking the same question?

RWS

[todd brinkerhoff]

So back to Todd, as the original poster.

A variety of information and opinions were posted in response to your original post.

Did you get the information you were seeking, and what is your current position on the issue?

What did you conclude, and what advice would you provide to a third party asking the same question?

RWS

I thank everyone for the comments. I would love to hear from more Trojan and Non-Trojan owners on their opinions of this brand. I find everyone's perspective useful.

As I said previously, I knew nothing of Trojans prior to owning a 10.8 Meter Express. I am docked at a marina with about 120 other boats. I am the only Trojan in the Marina. Most boats are Searays or Chapparrels. The comments I usually get when people come onboard the boat is in regards to the amount of room and layout. There are a couple of 80's vintage Sea Ray 390 owners who have fallen in love with my 10.8 because they are of comparable size. What I think is neat is that Trojan has become a very unique brand at these marinas. People that have been into boats for awhile will usually recognize the brand and want to check out the boat. I've been told by my neighbors that people are constantly checking out my boat. It's good to be unique amongst the Sea Ray, Chapparrel, Monteray, and Cruiser's Inc. community.

As far as the quality of the brand itself, I don't think you can beat the value of a Trojan. I got into my boat for $30,000. It had about 650 hours, was loaded with options, and came with a full hardtop. I can't touch a Tiara, Viking, or Formula that is in as good of shape for $30,000. Granted, it's gas, but it comes with Crusader motors, which can't be beat in the gas world.

A testament to the quality and versatility of Trojan Internationals is the fact that they are the most popular Charter boats in our area, and I would probably venture to say, in the Great Lakes. Hence why I was introduced to Trojans to begin with. My buddy worked on several charter boats that where Trojans, and he swore by them. He said that he had been caught in some very bad and rough weather, and never feared when onboard a Trojan. These charters are putting hundreds of hours on their boats a season. I was told by my mechanic that he just pulled two motors out of a Trojan Charter boat that had 3000 hours. That's pretty good.

My opinion on the "new' 10.8 Meter Express, I will admit that I was a little disappointed that the boat didn't have the delta conic hull. For awhile, I felt like the orphan of the orphan. But this gave me an opportunity to research this unique model, and found the boat's history and design to be really cool. A boat designed by a guy that continues to design mult-million dollar express style yachts; a hull designed by a company that has a pretty good track record of rough water handling; and a boat built by a company that Pascoe says makes a pretty solid boat. And now even the Trojan International guys are looking at this unique boat.

I don't have too many people ask me if they should buy a Trojan. Most people are into their brands, or looking for a specific boat. If someone was looking for a good quality, versatile, heavy duty boat, I would tell them that the Trojan Internationals are great values. They do not have the draw of the Tiara, Bertrams, Formulas or Vikings, but because of this, you can get into them for a great deal. And the money you save can be spent on upgrading, improving, or buying gas.

I think the value for me is compounded even further due to the type of boating we do in the Northeast. Our season is from May to October. It would be hard to swallow spending a large amount of money on your Viking, Tiara, or Formula while it sits in shrink wrap on the hard for 6 months.. It's an easier pill to swallow when you know that you didn't over-spend on a limited season.

So, Solid boats, good hulls, versatile layouts, huge amounts of space, and a pretty good conversational piece for a pretty decent price. Sounds ok to me.

Thanks for everyone's input.

[todd brinkerhoff]

And to answer my original question...on a financial investment only...No. But very few boats are.

On a personal value level...yes. I can afford a more expensive boat. But for the money I saved, I can begin to restore many of the outdated systems that would need to be changed on a boat that was triple the price. I can also update the soft goods, and add some teak to the cabin. I will never get more than what I paid, so I add what I want with my initial savings and only spend what I have.

There are many people who invested in big homes and fancy classic cars who are now stuck with the results of a bad economy. They all thought they were good investments in the beginning.

So my attitude for both my boat and house is don't overspend, and invest in things that make you happy, but not poor. Don't become house poor, or boat poor. That way you're not looking to take the bridge on the next financial meltdown. I can confidently walk away from my boat without any financial hardship (I might need a little bit for my house though).

It made me feel pretty good the other day when a co-worker bought a 1995 Sea Ray 370 Sundancer with mercury 7.4's for $65,000 and thought that was a good deal. I feel pretty good about my investment choice. I can do a lot of improvements with the $35000 less I spent on my 10.8.

[RWS]

found this article, dated near the height of the recession:

Note the highlights

RWS

==================================================================================================================================


Seaworthy: Should I repower my boat?


By: CAPT. JOHN CAMPBELL

Posted: 9:43 PM, Feb 26, 2009


Good question, I am so glad that you asked. As you might expect I'd say; "It all depends."

People re-power their boats for a myriad of reasons but it always comes down to a balancing act of cost, return and weighing wants against needs. The deciding factors are usually:

- Condition of my current power — Do my engines run well? Do they require some heavy cash in repairs and maintenance? Are they reliable? Fuel pigs?

- Condition of my boat — Do I love the hull and layout? Is she well mannered and does she do the things I want her to do? Are her bones in good shape? Did I have that surveyor fellow that scowls in his picture and writes for the paper have a look and tell me that the hull, and grid are in good shape and about how much the bare boat is worth? Have I poured a bunch of money into the hull recently like new electronics, canvass or topsides paint?

- Was my boat correctly powered to begin with — Could I use more power? It the transom or hull rated for more horsepower than is currently installed. And if not how will more power be of a benefit to me?

- Will the cost be absorbed in resale value if I decide to sell the boat?

- I have gasoline inboard engines, should I re-power with diesel?

- How can I slide the expense past the wife?

All of these are questions that need to asked and if possible answered. The last one is all up to you though.

During the course of my career I have re-powered dozens and dozens of boats. The one thing most of them had in common was that the owner loved that particular boat. He didn't want a bigger, newer shinier more modern version of the same thing or anything else. He liked his boat and installed fresh power.

In more than a few cases I was left shaking my head as the owner went happily down the bay in an old boat with power worth five times that of the boat. But he was happy and the check cleared so what else is there really? Well in some cases it just made simple financial sense to replace the old with new.

Enthusiasm can be costly. Have you ever stepped over a dollar to pick up a dime? I have. New engines are expensive, but the market is applying pressure and the prices have come way down. Recently, one of my clients was quoted a price at the Miami show for a new pair of 300 hp outboards that 10 months ago would have been unheard of by a margin of 25 percent.

Diesel engines as well have come down in price, especially the smaller versions in the 200 to 350 hp range. Cummins, Yanmar and Volvo are becoming very competitive.

Better gas mileage — How much gas saving does it take to account for 10-40,000 dollars?

"So is it worth it?" Settle down, I'm getting to that …

"Boater A" has a 6-year-old outboard boat of high quality and proven resale value. His engine is out of warranty. While out boating he hears an expensive noise and the engine dies. Later that week the mechanic gives him the bad news; "your power head is toast." Well he could re-build or replace the power head for a cost of around $4,500 — by the time it's all over — or buy a new engine for about $9,500. This is no brainier. Buy the new engine. Resale is enhanced with current technology, reliability and warranty is improved as well. Worth every nickel. Because his hull has held good value. (And not just to him)

"Boater B" has a lesser brand boat of the same age with the same problem. The trouble with boater B is that his hull value is so low that the numbers to re-power will never make sense. In this case, he is better off fixing it and getting as much use out of the boat as possible. Even if Boater B had sunk a bunch of money into it recently it doesn't matter. Depreciation is running hard. Very hard.

Should I re-power with diesel? No. Go buy a diesel boat at a great price and spend the extra making it the way you want it.

There is always an exception to any rule and in this case the exception is a word; "classic." The boat in question may be a classic in the (forgive me) classical sense or simply just be the only boat you will ever need or want. Posterity has value to at least one person.

Example: Do you have an old Formula 233? How about a 31 Bertram? Maybe a 200 cc Sea Ox or a 46 Hatteras. A stalwart Trojan 10 meter or a Potter built SeaCraft. Oh, Oh! or a John Allmand Citation. And the list goes on.

Why are these boats worth re-powering? Simple math. For the sake of argument lets say I happened to inherit a classic Allmand 25 Citation hard top with a nasty old OMC stern drive engine in mediocre shape. For me if that boat had a diesel stern drive it couldn't be bested. A deep V hull that eats up Gulf chop and provides for my fishing and family cruising needs. It fits behind my fence and can be towed with the truck I already own. Perfect! I could re-power it with diesel for way under $25,000. Conversely, I would have to find a Carolina Classic or custom Whitewater for three times that money to find what I wanted already made. But I would never need another boat. And that is why some guys (like me) pour lots of money into old boats.

That is the difference between classic, custom and production with needs and wants coming together as one. What do you have and is it worth the money to re-power? I suggest you call one of our Island brokers or myself to get a feel for what else is out there and what your baby is worth before committing either way.

You may e-mail Capt. Campbell with questions, comments and ideas for topics you would like to see him address at Baitkiller@comcast.net or 389-9769. Campbell AMS is an Accredited Marine Surveyor associated with the Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors, The American Boat and Yacht Council and the Collier County Marine Trades organization.

[todd brinkerhoff]

Thanks RWS. Fantastic article.

I never intended this to be about the value of repowering, but just the overall value of restoring a Trojan boat. But you are well aware of my desire to put a pair of modern, highly efficient, light weight diesels in my boat. I work harder to talk myself out of this undertaking than I do to make the investment. Articles like this only want me to make the investment.

I don't intend to make the investment in the very near future. My Crusaders are still running well. But this is why I would like to make the leap;

- The boat is a Trojan International. It is considered a very solid, seaworthy model, that has a very solid following
- This is the "New" model of International. They had 10 years to refine the International (Although I think RWS would argue the first Internationals were the best). They had full intentions of improving the model with this newly designed boat.
- There were only about 25 of these boats built. Once they are gone, they are gone for good. I would like to keep it going.
- I have received correspondence from Trojan workers who remember this new model. They considered this new model very innovative, and were honored to be a part of building this new boat.
- The VP of Trojan said that they made several innovative changes to this new model. They recruited designers from Bertram, because they considered Bertram one of the best hull designers. They spent a tremendous amount of time and money on this new model to ensure it was competitive with the top brands in the market. The VP also said that if he had a choice of owning one Trojan, it would be the 10.8 Meter Express.
- I fall deeper in love with this boat the longer I own it.

Why I want diesels;

-The current gas engines are not powerful enough for this boat. The boat is probably over 20,000 lbs. Additionally, it has a deeper, 18 degree deadrise hull, that is in need of more power than the gassers offer.
- It currently has large 22" props (with a 2.5 reduction). I think I can safely go to 24" props. I would like engines that can take advantage of those big screws.
- I would like to cruise in the mid 20's (mph). This boat hull feels much more agile when it is cruising in the mid 20's. The gassers cruise at 18 to 20, with fully extended trim tabs, and the boat feels very heavy. At WOT, which is about 26 to 27 mph, the boat feels great.
- I would like to cruise to Canada or the Thousand Islands without having to stop halfway for gas.
- I feel like a good set of diesels will only add to the overall enjoyment of the boat.
- Lastly, Crusader does not produced a big block gasser anymore. The 8.1 is gone, and the only option is the 6.0. I cannot imagine that the 6.0 will satisfy the above requirement, even though it does have a higher hp to weight ratio than my 454...AND, I refuse to replace a Crusader with a Mercruiser, even if they do have a 502 option. My only gas option when these motors crap the bed is to rebuild what I have, which seems inadequate.

I am hoping diesel engines will continue to gain popularity and become cheaper and more accessible with time. We'll see. Until then, I am going to try to keep these Crusaders humming.

[297Elegante]

Yes and no...

This is coming from someone who is "restoring" a Silverton, so bear with me.

I say yes because at the end of the day I think restoring anything you love is worth doing. I spent a couple hours today on taking an old crappy mirrored panel on my Silverton and adhering a ribbon stripe veneer followed by some coats of varnish to it. Was it worth it... Not to everyone, but to me it was. I have spent a lot of time on projects that may look pointless but bring me happiness. At the end of the day I still have a mid 80s cookie cutter boat that won't be worth what I have into it.

I say no because financially it's a poor decision. You won't get anywhere near your investment back. However when we are talking about hobbies we aren't in it for the investment ...

FYI I chose the silverton because the layout was nice (the same as an F32) and the price was right. I looked at a few Trojans but didn't find the right one. I envy your wood interiors and wide beams!!

[todd brinkerhoff]

Yes and no...

This is coming from someone who is "restoring" a Silverton, so bear with me.

I say yes because at the end of the day I think restoring anything you love is worth doing. I spent a couple hours today on taking an old crappy mirrored panel on my Silverton and adhering a ribbon stripe veneer followed by some coats of varnish to it. Was it worth it... Not to everyone, but to me it was. I have spent a lot of time on projects that may look pointless but bring me happiness. At the end of the day I still have a mid 80s cookie cutter boat that won't be worth what I have into it.

I say no because financially it's a poor decision. You won't get anywhere near your investment back. However when we are talking about hobbies we aren't in it for the investment ...

FYI I chose the silverton because the layout was nice (the same as an F32) and the price was right. I looked at a few Trojans but didn't find the right one. I envy your wood interiors and wide beams!!

I too am jealous of nice wood interiors.

I see several Silverton people, a couple Carver folks, which leads me to my next question...

Is there anyone who would only look for a Trojan for their next boat....the true die hard Trojan owner???

And question #2... If Trojan was still around making boats, who would their competitor... Sea Ray, or Tiara? Or maybe another brand. Would they be more of an International style company or traditional F style?

[ready123]

I too am jealous of nice wood interiors.
I see several Silverton people, a couple Carver folks, which leads me to my next question...
Is there anyone who would only look for a Trojan for their next boat....the true die hard Trojan owner???

I too like wood interiors and I did not look for a Trojan for my second boat. I wanted more space so I could live on it and in my research I came up with a late 80's President or Jefferson as meeting my needs and pocketbook... both offshore built. The Admiral was clear about needing extra space in the galley for two people to be working there often. This is what we went for.....





If I was not living on it I would lean towards something like my buddies boat, twin Volvo diesels with IPS drives..... though I would need a lotto win!

And question #2... If Trojan was still around making boats, who would their competitor... Sea Ray, or Tiara? Or maybe another brand. Would they be more of an International style company or traditional F style?

This sounds to be a pointless discussion.
They seemed unable to make a success of the International series at the time.... moving away from that designer's work.
How can we have any idea about what they would be doing in the present day market

[RWS]

Michael:

Done Dreamin is an awesome live aboard.



<SNIP> They seemed unable to make a success of the International series at the time.... <SNIP>

see highlight in the article (yes, again) below

It was in fact the luxury tax and the economy that doomed Trojan and numerous other storied brands concurrently.

RWS

Cutting Edge Cruiser - Trojan 10 Meter Express


by Peter Bohr


This article first appeared in the July 1994 issue of Sea Magazine. All or parts of the information contained in this article might be outdated.


Trojan's 10 Meter Express has 'the look'


"Euro-style" or "Med-style" -- call it what you will. But peruse any harbor, and you'll see plenty of examples of "the look."

Low, sleek and powerful, the Euro-style boat is as different from the traditional boxy power cruiser as Hillary Clinton is from Rush Limbaugh.

It was Trojan Yachts, formerly of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, that first brought the look to this country. When Trojan's 10 Meter International Series Express made its debut in 1981, it launched a new kind of family cruiser that's since been embraced by most American boat builders, from Bayliner to Tiara.

Besides giving the boat a sexy profile, the bold styling of Trojan's 10 Meter has several functional advantages over the usual flying bridge sedan cruiser of the day. The huge cockpit beneath the radar arch is the perfect place for sunning or partying.

And because the helm is in the cockpit -- not high above on the bridge -- the skipper isn't removed from any socializing in the cockpit. Nor does the skipper have to sprint up and down steps to handle lines, which makes dockside maneuvers much easier.

The Trojan 10 Meter's avant-garde look doesn't stop there. Belowdecks, the cabin is filled with modernistic curved surfaces and lush decor. On the earliest 10 Meters, the curved bulkhead door leading to the forward stateroom was even electrically operated, like something from the starship ,/Enterprise.

But once again, there is function in the form. Instead of unusable voids made by the sharp corners of square bulkheads, the 10 Meter's curved panels make for a more spacious and comfortable interior. "We didn't want people to get beat up by the corner of a table," said Harry Schoell, the 10 Meter's designer.

The boat's visual appeal alone might have made it a marketplace hit. But Schoell also came up with an innovative hull to go along with the 10 Meter's innovative lines topside.

Schoell's patented DeltaConic hull design has 18 inch wide horizontal chines that run from bow to stern on either side. In between the chines, the modified-V hull is deep at the bow and flatter toward the stern.

It all works remarkably well. The 10 Meter's wide body, combined with the wide chines, provides a remarkably stable and dry ride. Steering response isn't especially quick, but the boat feels solid and secure when those wide chines lock in for a turn.

With its standard twin 350 Crusader gasoline engines, the 10 Meter has a decent turn of speed -- though the boat isn't as fast as it looks to some people. The top speed is in the mid-30 mph range, and cruising speed is around 25 to 28 mph.

At cruising speed, the pair of Crusaders will burn about 20 gallons an hour combined. Diesels were an option, though never a popular one.

The original 10 Meter Express was eventually joined by a more conventional-looking 10 Meter flying bridge sedan (in 1982) and a 10 Meter midcabin design (in 1985). The latter model looks almost identical to the Express on the outside, but has a small sleeping area for two tucked under the helm.

The 10 Meter was not only a success in creating a whole new genre of cruiser in America, but it was a sales success for its builder. Between 1981 and 1989, Trojan sold more than 600 of these boats.

But alas, the company's fortunes were not all so sweet. After nearly 40 years of boat building, venerable Trojan entered bankruptcy. In 1992, the company's remains were purchased by Carver Boat Corp.

But happily for the owners -- and prospective owners -- of Trojan's 10 Meter Express, these boats are not orphans. Carver has retained a parts supply organization in Lancaster that can provide virtually anything for the 10 Meters (or almost any Trojan built since the late 1960s, for that matter) -- from radar arches to grabrails.

By all accounts, the 10 Meter hulls were stoutly constructed. Some boats built during 1985 and 1986 were afflicted with hull blisters, but most of these were permanently repaired under warranty by Trojan -- at a cost of about $10,000 a job.

In your search for a 10 Meter Express, keep in mind those acres of exposed cockpit. Though the earliest editions were rather sparsely outfitted, later boats had all manner of upholstered seats, wet bars and the like, which can deteriorate rapidly in the sun.

Moreover, according to surveyor Bunker Hill of Maritime Consultants in Newport Beach, these Trojans' interior cabinetry and fittings weren't especially durable. So you may have to perform some cabin refurbishing as well.

A new 10 Meter Express carried a base price of $74,500 in 1981,

and the price tag rose to just over $100,000 by the end of its production run. Today, expect to pay between $45,000 and $95,000.

[todd brinkerhoff]

This sounds to be a pointless discussion.
They seemed unable to make a success of the International series at the time.... moving away from that designer's work.
How can we have any idea about what they would be doing in the present day market

Feel free to refrain from joining the conversation then...

This question is OBVIOUSLY hypothetical, and I apologize to everyone if this is ANNOYING. Feel free to move on (Yet this is a TROJAN forum...weird )

I ask this question because the Trojan Executives in 1990 decided to take a different direction in their International series. Why did they decide to go with a new design? Who were they trying to cater to? They recruited a designer that currently designs multi-million dollar express yachts in Italy. This is a excerpt from an article in 1990 in regards to the very short lived 10.8 Meter Express:

The market niche for Trojan International is comprised of the same folks who tool around in luxurious imported cars. These boatbuyers expect components and materials, and a higher level of fit and finish. They also expect to pay more, which they do. The base price of this boat is $193,000. By my reckoning, a fully appointed 10.8 Meter, such as the one we tested, retails for $234,780, quite a chunk of change.

At first glance, there seems to be several boats to compare with the 10.8, but a closer examination shows otherwise. There are a number of boats with Eurostyle elements (the Sea Ray 370 immediately comes to mind), but don’t confuse fundamentally American-style boats with a thoroughbred Mediterranean express cruiser like the Trojan. In the final analysis, there is one other company building boats in this style; Sunseeker.

Sunseeker’s 36 Martinique is most comparable to the 10.8 Meter. In the presence of either you are immediately overwhelmed with the Mediterranean flavor; it’s the real thing. I’m not talking about glitz. If the purpose of glitz is to tell everyone you’ve arrived, the understated look of this Trojan is to remind yourself of the same fact, and that is much more satisfying.

As RWS stated, they went under because of a short lived luxury tax, that affected every major boat manufacturer. Trojan was too small to weather the storm. They didn't have a chance to truly test the market with the new 10.8 Meter before they went belly up. They only created about 25 boats. I asked John Leed about this and he stated that they spent a tremendous amount of money on this new venture, to only produce so few boats.

Carver obviously saw some potential in the direction of Trojan, and created their own version of the International Series based on the new 10.8. BUT, the difference is that Carver knew they needed to cut costs, and built these boats (Carver Trojan Express 370, 390, and 400) for some 30% less, in order to make them more affordable to a wider group of consumers. Carver was successful with this brand until the mid 2000's. But, I would venture to say, that Carver's consumer may be wider than Trojans.

So, don't think its too far of a stretch to Theorize their position in todays market had they survived.

And this discussion is for entertainment value only. All tangible facts are excused.

[RWS]

Todd, you absolutely crack me up !

The question may be what would they have had to build to survive?

Would they have survived as an independent, or as bought out by another company?

When Carver bought them, they survived in name only, through 2002.

Carver itself as a part of the Genmar "family" went through bankruptcy in 2009, and is now known as Marquis Yachts.

So many firms have succumbed to the costs of increased regulation, higher labor costs, and environmental regulations and costs which are staggering when dealing with paints, chemicals and fiberglass materials.

Spread these costs out over a smaller number of boats per year would have made it difficult to compete.

add to that the cyclical nature of the economy, and the kinds of purchases that generally suffer in a down turn.

A few niche companies have managed to avoid being sucked up by the Brunswick/Genmar/ETC megafirms , but they are few and far between.

Tiara and Formula are two that come to mind.

I don't believe TROJAN could have survived on it's own, unless they were able to reduce production costs, or come up with "the next best thing"

Innovation is key.

Of course, the next best thing is often copied and improved upon by competitors.

Bertram is owned by Feretti

anyone know who owns Hatteras?

In 1990, President George H. W. Bush and a Democratic Congress imposed a 10 percent luxury tax on yachts, saying it would generate $31 million in new revenue annually.
Democrat leaders in Congress cheered that, finally, the ultra-rich would pay their fair share of taxes. It’s always convenient when there’s a villain to tag with a tax.
Within eight months after the tax law took effect, the largest U.S. yacht manufacturer laid off 1,140 of its 1,400 workers. In the first year of the tax, one-third of U.S. boat-building companies ceased production and the industry shed 7,600 jobs.

Yachts continued to be built — mostly in Europe and Asia — and very rich people continued buying them. But sales of new boats in the U.S. dropped dramatically.
Congress repealed the tax in 1993. By then, some 25,000 workers had lost their jobs and 75,000 more jobs were lost in companies that supplied yacht parts and materials.
Unemployment checks and lost income tax revenues cost the government $24.2 million. The value of jobs and salaries lost in just the first six months of the luxury tax was estimated at $159.6 million.

Here’s a list of powerboat manufacturers from Boat U.S.

How many of these have survived?

Albemarle
Albin
Allmand - Power
Amateur Built - Power
Angler
Aquasport
Arima Marine
Atlantic Motoryachts
Azimut
Back Cove Yachts
Baja
Bay Built / Deadrise
Bayliner
Beneteau
Bertram
Blazer
Bluewater Yachts
Boston Whaler
Bryant
Buehler Turbocraft
Cabo
Californian
Calyber Boatworks
Camano
Cape Dory
Cape Horn
Caravelle
Carolina Classic
Carolina Skiff
Carver
Catamaran Cruisers
C-Dory
Celebrity
Centurion
Century
Chaparral
C-Hawk
Checkmate
Cheoy Lee
Chris Craft
Cigarette
Cobalt
Cobia
Correct Craft
CraigCat
Crest
Crestliner
Crownline
Cruisers, Inc
Dargel
Defever
Donzi
Doral
Duffy
DuraNautic
Dyer
Dynasty
Eagle
East Bay
Eastern
Ebbtide
Edgewater Boats
Egg Harbor
ELCO
Evans
Everglades
Fairline
Ferretti
Formula / Thunderbird
Four Winns
Gibson
Gil-Boat
Glacier Bay
Glastron
Godfrey
Grady White
Grand Banks
Grumman
Gulfstar
H & H Marine
Harbor Master
Hatteras
Heritage East
Hinckley
Hobie
Holiday Mansion
Huckins
Hurricane
Hydra Sports
Invader
Jamestowner
Jefferson
Jersey Boats
Jupiter
Kadey Krogen -Power
Key West Boats, Inc.
Kha-Shing
Larson
Legacy
Lien Hwa
Lord Nelson
Luhrs
Lund
Lyman
Mainship
Mako
Malibu
Marathon
Mariah
Marine Trader
Marinette
Mastercraft
Maxum
Maycraft
McKee Craft
McKinna
Meridian Yachts
Mirage Boats
Monk
Monterey
Monticello
Myacht
Navigator
Nimble
Nordhavn
Nordic Tug
Novamarine
Ocean Alexander
Ocean Yachts
Odyssey Pontoon
Owens
Pacemaker
Palm Beach
Parker
Penn Yan
Phoenix
Pioneer
Polar
Polaris
Post Marine
Privateer
Pro-Line
Pro-Sport
Pursuit
Quest
Ranger
Regal
Regulator
Reinell
Renken
Revel Craft
RIBCRAFT
Rinker
River Queen
Riviera
Robalo
Rosborough Boats Ltd
Sabreline Yachts (power)
Sailfish
Sanpan Pontoon
Scout
Sea Boss
Sea Cat
Sea Chaser
Sea Fox
Sea Hunt
Sea Ox
Sea Ray
Sea Sport
Sea Vee
SeaDoo
Sea-Pro
Seaswirl
Shamrock
Silverton
Sisu
Skagit Orca
Skipjack
Somerset
Sonic
Southland Pontoon
Sportcraft
Stamas
Starcraft
Stardust
Steiger Craft
Stingray
Sumerset
Sunbird
Sunsation
Sunseeker
Symbol
Ta Chiao
Thompson
Thompson Trawlers
Thompson/Santa Cruse
Thunderbird/Forumla
Tiara
Tiffany Yachts
Tollycraft
Topaz
Tracker Marine
Transpac
Triton
Trojan
Trojan / Bertram
Trophy
Twin-Vee
Uniflite
Viking
VIP Boats
Wellcraft
Willard

[todd brinkerhoff]

Sorry...my wife usually yells at me for my sarcasm...

RWS,

Great points, and well thought out too

What has Tiara and Formula done to survive this roller coaster economy? Both brands are very expensive, and continue to put out a very high quality product.

Isn't Formula a family owned company?